What if you could scale your revenue without growing your expenses? What if you could make a living with your writing but still remain alone in your writing room? I discuss these questions and more today with Paul Jarvis.

In the intro, I talk about second-hand book sales [Dean Wesley Smith], how the death of poet Mary Oliver can help deepen our writing [listen to her on the On Being Podcast], why ‘sparking joy‘ is so important (referencing Marie Kondo on Netflix), plus the Kickstarter for Intellectual Property Tracking.

Today’s show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at www.draft2digital.com/penn

Paul Jarvis is a writer, a designer, a podcaster, an online course teacher, and software creator. His latest book is Company of One: Why Staying Small is the Next Big Thing for Business.

You can listen above or on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or watch the video here, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• The difference between a company and a solo author

• Why growth isn’t the by-product of success

• On feeding the hungry ghosts

• The importance of paying attention to the audience we already have

• Tips for introverts who are building an email list

• The importance of hiring support when you can afford it

• Setting boundaries to support who you are as an author

• Tips for being resilient in the face of rapid change

• Why smaller companies have an advantage over larger ones, especially when it comes to changing direction

You can find Paul Jarvis at pjrvs.com and on Twitter @pjrvs

Transcript of Interview with Paul Jarvis

Joanna: Hi, everyone. I’m Joanna Penn from TheCreativePenn.com, and today I’m here with Paul Jarvis. Hi, Paul.

Paul: Hey, how are you?

Joanna: I’m good. Thanks for joining me. Just a little introduction.

Paul is a writer, a designer, a podcaster, an online course teacher, and software creator. His latest book is ‘Company of One: Why Staying Small is the Next Big Thing for Business‘.

As soon as I heard about this, you started talking about it on your newsletter a while ago, and I was like I need to have you one the show because Company of One is such a great title.

Before we get into the book, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing.

Paul: A few years ago, my mom sent me a package, and in the package was a bunch of books. I’d forgotten I had written them, a bunch of books that I’d written in grade school. And they were pretty long as well. They were all illustrated.

It was about a hamster that was also a Top Gun pilot.

Joanna: Cool.

Paul: I’ve always enjoyed writing. I forgot that I did, in my early adult life. And as an adult, I’d always wanted to write. I just kept telling myself this silly story, like, ‘You aren’t a writer.’

And then I realized one day, wait a second, if I just started writing, then I would be a writer. And then that voice in my head saying I’m not a writer, that would not be true anymore.

So, I started writing articles, and I’ve kind of always blogged on and off, but for probably about six, seven years ago now, I wanted to see if writing could be a viable job or something I do for work.

At the time, I was a web designer, and I figured, okay, I’ll separate out the income that I make for web design and then the income that I could make on writing, and if the writing income ends up making more than web design, then maybe I’ll switch from being a web designer to a writer.

It’s funny, the first book that I wrote cost me zero dollars, because at the time…I like to do these weird experiments, and my wife just kind of plays along, where I didn’t want to buy anything for an entire year. The first book that I wrote was a cookbook.

All of our plates and cutlery…I wanted to have photos in the books, most recipe books have photos, all of our plates are kind of ugly. We don’t have fancy things. So, I basically figured out a way to do the book for zero dollars.

A friend of my mine was a pastry chef at a five-star restaurant, so I borrowed lots of stuff from their kitchen. My friend who is an editor needed some web work, so I traded her editing for web design. The photographer, I was like, ‘Hey, you can eat all of the things you photograph, do you want to help out?’ So, she said, ‘Sure.’

So, I produced the book for zero dollars, and I spent literally nothing on the book, and I released it. And then as it started to make money, I had money to spend a bit more on the next book. And then as that book made money, I had a bit more to spend on the next book.

I really kept things separate because I wanted to really make a go of, ‘Hey, if I want to do writing, let’s see if I can do this as a viable source of income.’ So that’s kind of how it started, with trying to spend zero dollars on anything.

Joanna: Which is awesome, and we’re going to come back to questions about scaling revenue without expenses, because I think that’s really interesting.

But I wanted to come straight back to the title, because a Company of One, and many writers listening, they might be writing fiction or nonfiction, but they feel like they’re a writer or an author, and they’re one, but they don’t necessarily feel like they’re a company.

What, in your mind, differentiates a company from someone just writing a book and trying to make a little bit of cash.

Paul: Companies need revenue, and I think there’s different levels of being a company. You can have a part-time company. You can have a business on the side where you’re maybe writing evenings and weekends, and you’re making enough for extra money to put into savings to go on vacation or that sort of thing.

But I think if you’re looking to make a company, like a full-time company, then it needs to make enough revenue to support all aspects of your life. Just like your day job should support your rent or your mortgage and food and car payments or whatever it is that you spend money on.

I think that’s probably the definition, is it needs to be profitable in some way.

And I think there also needs to be some kind of longevity because, especially with writers, you can write a book that does well, it’s hard to write a lot of books that do well. But I think that’s really the goal is to have a continued career doing this as opposed to just one book.

I think it’s hard to write your first book, but I think it’s harder to write your second book, at least for me. I think I’m on book five. It doesn’t really get easier.

And to define what a company of one is, I guess really just any business that questions growth. So, it can be a one-person business. It can be a 50-person business.

The whole thesis of the book is that growth isn’t the by-product of success. Choice is a by-product of success, or freedom to choose is a by-product of success.

So, in that way, you can be a one-person business and do well and decide, ‘Hey, I don’t want to grow.’ Or you can be a one-person business and do really well and say, ‘Hey, I want to grow, say, a small team or an even bigger team.’

But it’s just a matter of deciding what makes sense, because growth doesn’t always make sense. It just sometimes makes sense.

For me, I have a small team that I work with, especially for writing, because I’m not good at all aspects of writing. I have a bunch of people that I work with to really make my writing better, to be honest.

Joanna: I always preach on this show hiring an editor, hiring a book cover designer, hiring web help for people who aren’t very technical, that you have to hire out those things.

You can do freelancing and work for hire. You don’t have to have employees, which is kind of what you’re talking about.

But it’s interesting, because the ‘enough’ number is really interesting. I want to talk about that because authors are pretty obsessed with book sales. And before we started recording, you said how many podcasts you’re doing. Your publisher clearly wants you to sell some books, right? You don’t just put the book out there and happy days, it’s out.

So, you have a number of things. You talk about the ‘enough’ number, the beast, the hungry ghost, and also ego.

I wonder if you could talk about how these things relate to the author life and book sales.

Paul: Yeah, so to the first point, enough, I think that when we start any business, whether it’s writing or anything, we start kind of at zero. Like, you don’t say, ‘Oh, I want to be an author,’ and you have 10,000 people or more lined up to buy copies of your book.

That sounds great. I would love if that happened. I don’t actually think that that ever happens. In the beginning, we all start in this pre-enough phase.

We’re all working towards, we’re all growing towards having enough to support ourselves in the career that we have in writing. And so, we have to adopt this kind of growth mindset where we need to sell enough books, or we need to generate enough revenue.

Where I think things can go awry is when we don’t question whether or not we’ve hit enough. Because in startups, same as in writing, we just think that, ‘Oh, we need to sell more, more, more, more, more.’

And at some point, it could be that we have enough books sales, or we have enough of an audience that can support us, and we can make decisions to optimize for enough as opposed to optimizing always for growth.

It’s just like with writers, ‘Oh well, maybe I could sell more if I water down my writing or I made it more palatable to more people.’

When in reality, it could be more along the lines of, ‘I just want to write books that relate to the audience that I have, however big or however small.’

If I’m selling enough books to make a decent living, then maybe that’s all I want. Maybe I don’t want to be noticed at the yoga studio or out for groceries. Like, that, to me, wouldn’t be a life that I want. I would rather be known to a small group of people who support my enough, as opposed to recognized when I’m out or having to do, like, talk shows and travel all the time.

That, to me, isn’t success. I like the life that I have. So, I think that’s kind of enough.

The hungry ghost kind of applies to that. It’s a bit of a Buddhist story about how there’s this hungry ghost that’s never full. And I think that really relates to enough, because a lot of times, we just want more and more and more, and we don’t think about why. And that’s kind of the hungry ghost story, where appetite is never completely full.

And a lot of that relates to ego. And I think ego is a good thing, because we need to have enough ego to say, ‘I want to write something that matters. I want to write something and share it with other people.’ That’s the good side of ego.

All writers should have that where they want to share something, because I think everybody has a great story in them to share, whether it’s writing or anything.

Where I think ego can lead us astray is when we just want more without questioning why. So, if we just want more book sales and we don’t even know why we want them, or we want to be on, say, ‘The New York Times’ bestseller list, and we don’t even know what that means or how that works.

I think it all kind of relates to a little bit of introspection around what we need versus what we want and why we want the things that we think we want, because maybe we don’t.

Joanna: I think so much of this comes from almost a myth in the publishing industry, that I think is not even really true now, which is you have to hype, hype, hype, do the launch, hit the list, and you can retire, and you’ve made a million.

I like the fact that you’re looking at more of a longer-term approach, which is what I talk about. Many authors listening will feel like they are not making enough right now, and that’s completely fine if people are feeling that.

But one of the things I really like that you were talking about is scaling up revenue without expenses. And this is something that’s really prevalent right now in the author community because the rite of paid advertising, in particular, is the expenses can grow and can outstrip your revenue quite quickly with things like online ads.

What are some ways that authors could scale up revenue without their expenses growing too much?

Paul: I think just questioning what it is that you need. Do you need a brand-new Apple laptop when the one you’ve got works? I replace my computers probably once every seven years, if that. Same with my phone. Phones are so expensive now.

Joanna: Battery life is so bad, though, after about two and a half years.

Paul: Yeah, exactly. But it’s $2,000 for a tiny pocket computer. I think it’s ridiculous.

Looking at all of the expenses that we have and seeing what we need, what we don’t need. I don’t need an office to write. This is my house. I’m sitting in my house right now in a spare bedroom that I share with my pet. And it’s more his room than mine.

I don’t need the expense of an office. I don’t need business cards, because I live in the woods on an island. I don’t actually see people where I could give a business card to. I haven’t had business cards in probably 15 years.

The other thing to think about is if you grow your revenue, how much is it going to cost to grow your revenue? Because I think a lot of people get obsessed with the gross number, whereas we should be paying attention to the net number.

I don’t care how much money I bring in for gross revenue. I care what my profit is after my expenses are taken out of the equation. I would rather spend less but make the same amount, and then I have more profit, versus spending more to make more.

And it doesn’t always work out. I’ve never done any paid advertising because I don’t think that it’s necessarily worth it for the things that I do. Remember, I’m focused on a smaller audience that gets me, that doesn’t need paid ads. Like, they find me through other means.

And things like email marketing is perfect for me because I can write a newsletter. I like writing, so I write an article once a week. I’ve done that for six years. Actually, six years, two days…I started my newsletter six years ago on, I think, November 10th or so.

I’ve been writing this newsletter for over six years now. And it’s called the ‘Sunday Dispatches,’ so I release an article obviously every Sunday. And that, to me, has been the best way to both connect with my existing audience, which I think a lot of authors don’t think about.

They’re always looking at getting new people to read their books as opposed to making sure that the people who are already paying attention are happy, and are satisfied, and like the work, and like the new work.

If we stop paying attention to the audience we already have, and they’re the ones who are already paying attention to us, then I think things can easily go awry. I like to think about all of the ways that I can continue to reach my existing audience. And they actually tell a lot of people.

I feel like they’re my unpaid sales force. As long as I keep them happy and engaged, and I listen to what they have to say, and I write things that they want to read, they go out and share that. They go out and share the things that I make and the things that I write, and it reaches more people that way than I could myself, even through paid advertisements.

Joanna: I think I heard about you on ‘Being Boss,’ podcast. And then I signed up for your email list that way. So, I’m interested, because I would assume you’re an introvert.

Paul: Very much, yeah.

Joanna: You live on an island, never go anywhere. And so, it’s interesting because a lot of people listening, a lot of authors are also introverts. I’m an introvert. I do travel more than you do.

But what are some of the ways, then, that people have found you? Because email marketing only works when people actually get on your email list.

What are some of the ways that you’re getting people on that email list, in an introvert fashion?

Paul: Having a consistent cadence. I’ve never missed a Sunday other than when I’m taking a break. I don’t send emails during the holidays, like, from about American Black Friday to the new year. People are too busy then. I feel like nobody misses me then, because everybody’s getting too many emails then anyways.

But otherwise, I have such a cadence with that list that people expect it. And then I try to make sure that the writing that I write is both interesting and valuable, because then I feel like people are going to share that, and people do share that.

And the thing I like about email is that people reply all the time, which is nice because I feel like I have a direct connection with my audience and I can see what resonates with them and what doesn’t.

So, if I see one article, I got like 500 replies and it was shared tons of times, versus another article where I got 10 replies and it wasn’t really shared, then I can see, ‘Okay, my audience is really interested in this topic, but not this topic.’

Maybe I can write more about that or more in that style or around that idea. And then it fosters sharing.

And then, in the beginning, when I hadn’t reached enough with my writing, I was doing writing for different publications and just trying to get word out, trying to do interviews, like the ‘Being Boss’ show. I was just trying to figure out, ‘Okay, these are the type of people that I want to reach. These are the type of people that would be in my audience if they knew about me. So where are they hanging out now?’

And I’ll go to them. I’ll try to meet them where they are already spending time, and then when they hear about me on those places or they read my words on those places, then they’re going to come to my website.

And all my website focuses on, there’s no popups, there’s no distractions, there’s no anything. The biggest thing is the signup. Every single page has the newsletter signup. I know my newsletter drives the majority of my revenue and is responsible for the bulk of my book sales. So, I focus a lot on that.

And my whole website, my website doesn’t even really focus on selling anything because I know that people probably aren’t going to buy right away. But if they’re on my list and they read an article a week from me, if I keep showing up on their radar, if I keep showing up in their inbox, then they’re gonna buy something, eventually.

It’s usually a couple months, but it doesn’t matter to me when they buy. If they’re interested and they buy, then that’s all that matters.

Joanna: I think email marketing is really good for, like you say, a company of one, because you can scale yourself through email marketing.

What are some of the other systems that are important for scaling? For example, the very first person I ever hired in my extended team was a bookkeeper because it was like, this is something I’m not good at.

I do not want to reconcile my bank accounts and all of this by myself. So that, to me, was kind of scaling, because I got a freelancer.

What are some of the systems that you have, and what have you found successful in that way?

Paul: I definitely have an accountant and bookkeeper. I tell people I’m good at making money. I’m not good at keeping track of that money. I think having an accountant and a bookkeeper should save you money because, it’s funny, because when you don’t run a business, you think, ‘Well, I owe the government, like, a fixed amount based on my income.’ And it’s never that way.

A good accountant is going to find ways that you pay the government less, which is…I like that. I’m very cheap. I like paying the government less of my hard-earned money.

Joanna: And then you could give some to charity if you like, to those people listening here were like, ‘Ah.’

Paul: Exactly. I do actually do a lot of animal-related charity stuff. If I’m spending less on giving the government money, then I can put more into what I care about, which is animal welfare stuff.

The other thing is I have a lawyer, and I think that that’s really important as well because if you’re running a business, your business needs to, one, be set up properly, and two, you need to be the least liable as possible should anybody want to take issue with you.

Even for things like reviewing contracts, I think that that’s really important. That, to me, is a huge thing.

And, I mean, for me, I always look to figure out ways to be able to do more without having to spend a lot more and without having to manage. So, for me, I know I’m really good at doing work. I’m not very good at managing people. I’m actually awful at managing people.

Even things like making dinner, I do most of the cooking in the house. And if my wife is like, ‘Oh, how can I help with dinner,’ I’m like, ‘I don’t know.’ I’m very bad at giving people tasks, so in my business, I only hire people that don’t require any management.

I hire people who are really good at what they do. They may cost a little more, but I don’t need to manage them. So, for example, my copy editor, we communicate in emojis.

Joanna: That’s a great copy editing tip.

Paul: That’s so weird. We have a shared Google Drive folder, so when I write an article, it goes there. He gets a notification. He sends me a ‘thumbs up’ that he’s received it and then a ‘pencil’ when the article is finished being copy-edited.

I send him a ‘thumbs up’ when I’ve gone through the revision, so he can have one final pass. I don’t need to ask him if he’s doing his job. I don’t need to tell him, ‘Hey, you need to do this work.’ He just does it, and I don’t need to manage him.

Same with my podcast editors, same with my developmental editor, same with my accountant, my lawyer. All of the people that I work with, the small team I have, one, they’re all freelancers so I don’t have to worry about HR or…I don’t know how any of that works.

Joanna: Payroll books.

Paul: Exactly. I don’t want to be responsible for any person other than myself. I know that they work on other things, and I’m happy that they do, because if I don’t have work for them, I don’t need to pay them.

And then, two, I pay them more than typical because they’re really good at what they do, and they don’t require management. So, I can have as much time as possible to do the work I like, and I don’t have to spend time managing them or having meetings.

I don’t like any of that stuff. I would rather just pay them a premium for the A players. They do their job well without interference from me. And so that, to me, works so well.

Joanna: I have a really wonderful virtual assistant, Alexandra. Hi, Alexandra. And we literally, we’ve been working together nearly five years, and we’ve spoken twice or three times, really.

And it’s so funny because again, this might be the company of one, introvert, author thing, I don’t know. But it’s quite common in our space to be like that, and it just works super well. So, I really like that.

So, what you are good at, I really noticed, is saying, ‘No,’ because I think you also took a break on your email when you were writing the book.

Paul: I did.

Joanna: And said, ‘Right. Bye, bye. I’ll be back later.’ I don’t know how long the break was, but can you talk about saying no? Because I feel like it’s very hard to say no. Many of us struggle with this.

How do you manage your time and not offend people without feeling guilty?

Paul: The first thing is I went from being a child to being a curmudgeonly old man, so that helps.

Joanna: How am I going to do that?

Paul: I went straight from 9 to 73.

A lot of people have said, ‘Well, it’s okay for you to have boundaries, because you’re where you’re at.’ And I’d correct them, and I’m like, ‘I’ve always had boundaries, and I think that’s why I’m where I’m at.’

For me, boundaries are important, because if you don’t set them with other people, they’re going to set them for you. And you may not like where that boundary ends up.

When I was doing work with clients, I would always say, ‘I’m completely available between this hour and this hour of the day. If you call or email after those hours, I’ll get back to you the following day.’

So, I wouldn’t get calls at 3:00 in the morning or emails that needed a response at 11:00, and I go to bed really early. I wouldn’t get emails at 11:00 and expect a response, because I set that very clear boundary.

Even with writing, in the contract, it said that I would do a three-week book tour. I don’t want to do a book tour. I don’t like speaking. I also feel like I’m not a big enough deal.

I couldn’t go to any one city and sit there and have a crowd of people. It would be me with…and this is just a story in my mind. It would be myself with a stack of books and a cardboard cutout of myself, and I’d just be sitting there twiddling a pen.

I didn’t feel like that was a good use of my time. So, I challenged it. I was like, ‘I don’t want to sign this contract if I have to do a book tour.’

And my agent was like, ‘Well, are you sure you want to go to bat for this? They may not want to work with you.’ I’m like, ‘If they don’t want to work with me for something that silly, then we’ll find another publisher.’ Like, ‘It doesn’t matter.’

In the end, the publisher didn’t care. They’re like, ‘Okay, that was just boilerplate anyway. We’ll take it out.’

Joanna: Just before you go on, that is so true, and people just assume this stuff. But again, as an introvert, you’re going to do much better doing a whole load of stuff like podcasts and writing and you’d reach far more people than doing a physical book store. It’s just a signing. It’s crazy that they still include that in a boilerplate.

Paul: There’s a lot of crazy things about the publishing industry, but that’s another conversation. But I think that the point there is that a lot of times, we feel like what we want to say no to or where we want to set our boundaries is scary, because we think it’s going to be a big deal to the other side.

It typically isn’t.

And then the other thing for setting boundaries that makes it less scary is if you make it a general rule as opposed to something personal. So, what I mean by that is, somebody will invite me to do a speaking gig at a conference, and when I reply, I’ll say, ‘I don’t do speaking gigs. I’ve never done them. I’m not interested in doing them.’ Which is a lot better than saying, ‘I don’t want to do your speaking gig.’

It’s just a rule. It’s a general rule I have. It’s not personal to you, it’s just this is just not what I do. I always try to think of when I say no to things or when I set boundaries about things, I think about how I can make it a rule, because then it’s not specific to that person, it’s just a general rule.

People don’t have problems with rules. In society, we pretty much follow rules fairly well. So, the more that we can set our boundaries around rules, the easier it becomes to enforce those rules, because then it’s just, ‘This is a rule. You can’t argue the rule.’

Joanna: I like that a lot. I’ve been, as we talk now, I’ve just done what is my last speaking gig on my calendar that I had booked a long time ago, and now I want to set that rule, but I’m also quite scared of setting that rule.

It’s a challenging thing to set boundaries, especially if you’re trying to move your boundaries from where they were. Ten years ago when I started out, I needed to speak to make some income. So again, quite different.

I want to also ask about mindset issues, because mindset is something that is so…I feel like goes up and down. And especially, we’re in an environment of fear in the media right now, and people feel like companies might be struggling and growth is super important because of that reason.

What are some of the mindset issues that company of ones face, and how do we get over that?

Paul: A lot of nonfiction writers really try to be like, ‘This is the blueprint. My book is the blueprint. My thesis is the blueprint that everybody should follow.’

I’m not really like that. I feel like Company of One, the book, is more just a way for people to better think about the questions that they might have around building their business. And so, the book really just brings up questions, right?

Things like ‘Why do you want more? Why do you really want more?’ Because a lot of times, we’ll tell ourselves a BS answer. And then we have to get past those stories we tell ourselves.

We spoke about we also need to think about how much is enough, and how will we know when we’ve reached enough? And then, what will change in the way that we work or in the way that we do things once we’ve reached enough? We talked about this as well, but does this growth serve just my ego, and is that a good or a bad thing?

The other thing is how does growth serve or help our existing audience? Because maybe it doesn’t. Maybe our audience likes the fact that we’re fairly accessible.

I’m a pretty accessible person. If somebody replies to my newsletter, I’m going to reply back if they ask a question.

Whereas if my newsletter was a million people and I got thousands of replies instead of hundreds of replies, maybe I couldn’t do that. So, I don’t even want a bigger audience at this point. I like that I can have that interaction with my audience, because I feel like it helps me just as much as it may help my audience.

The other thing is to think about what the maintenance costs of saying yes to things are, because maybe saying yes to a certain opportunity could mean, ‘Oh. Well, you need to hire three more people.’

Do you wanna manage three more people? For me, the answer is always pretty much a resounding no. The other things to think about are things like how does…and we spoke about this as well, like, how does this growth affect my profit, my net profit? And then how does it affect my happiness? Would I be happier?

And I think a lot of times, we need to work backwards into the life that we want thinking about what it daily entails, because if I had a bigger company, my day would be filled with managing that company.

I like doing work. I really like writing. I really like making things on the internet. If I had a bigger company, I would have to manage the people doing the work that I want to do. I would be promoting myself out of the job I want, which doesn’t make sense.

Those are some of the kinda specific things that we can think about to challenge the prevailing mindset that growth is always good and always beneficial, because I don’t necessarily think that it is.

Joanna: Coming back then on ego, and there are a lot of mindset issues in the independent author community around social standing when there’s traditionally-published authors at a conference and independent authors at a conference.

Some days I think the stigma of self-publishing has gone away. And other days, I’m like, ‘Whoa, what’s happening?’

You’ve done both indie and traditional.

What do you think are some of the ego things around the different types of publishing, and how has that impacted your choices in any way?

Paul: I think a lot of it is the grass is always greener. When I was independently publishing books, I felt like, ‘Oh, if I was traditionally published, I would have all of this help and it would make me seem like a more legitimate author.’

And now that I have a traditional publishing deal, I’m like, ‘There’s a lot of good things about independent publishing, like being able to pick my cover.’ I feel like I’m doing the same amount of work to promote the book when I was on my own versus having a publisher.

I don’t feel like there’s much change. I think we all just want what we can’t have or what we don’t have.

Doing traditional publishing, for me, was just an experiment. I just wanted to see what traditional publishing was like. I actually like independent publishing and self-publishing a lot. I didn’t even know if my next book will be traditionally published.

The grass is always greener. I think if somebody was going to be that, like, turn their nose at somebody who’s independently published, I wouldn’t want to talk to that person anyway, at a conference.

Why would I wanna talk to somebody that’s just going to be that much of a dope about things? I think there’s benefits on either side. And I think a lot of it is work you have to do on your own, whether you have a publisher or not.

I feel like I’m doing the same amount of work. I feel like the biggest benefit to traditional publishing was I got to work with the editor that I really, really wanted to work with, and he works at a major publishing house. So that was my option.

Joanna: It is kind of tied into your overarching theme, which is looking at the questions around what you really want. And if you really want to work with that editor, then yes, that’s where you go. And the pros and cons on the other side are whatever.

We’re almost out of time, but one of the things you talk about is resilience and ability to adapt in the face of change, which is one of the things I love about being independent. We can move so fast.

I can just jump on a thing, whereas, bigger companies take a longer time to move. And you do mention AI and the end of jobs. And I’ve just been listening to ‘AI Superpowers,’ which is a new book that’s just come out, and really thinking about how this is going to work.

What can make a company of one resilient in a future where we’re looking at such fast-paced change?

Paul: I’ve been working for myself for two decades now, and I want to keep working for myself for probably another two decades.

Dean Becker, who’s the CEO of Adaptive Learning Systems, he’s studied resilience since, I think, 1997, and he found that resilience above education, training, experience, like, that’s what leads to success in any business.

There’s three traits that he found that all resilient people have. The first is accepting reality, because we can’t control everything. And I think this is especially important to authors, because we think, ‘Oh, well, I want to be on the bestseller list or hit number one on Amazon.’ And I think that’s a good thing to shoot for, but there’s no guarantee to get there. It doesn’t matter who you are.

The New York Times specifically, does editorialize that list, so they pick who they want on the list, even the list that are based entirely on numbers, which is a bit more meritocratic. But still, like, you don’t know what book is coming out that week.

If J.K. Rowling has a book out that week, you’re not going to sell more books than her. So, I think a lot of times, we just have to accept reality.

And what would that even do for us? And sometimes, it’s nothing. How can we instead get the book out in places we can control, like to our own audience who are probably waiting to read the book and are probably really happy that the book is coming out.

So, accepting reality is first trait.

Second trait is having a sense of purpose. And I think that’s super important for authors, because if you’re writing just to make a lot of money or to rank on lists, that’s fine. But you can’t control that, so it’s probably not going to last very long.

If you’re writing because you feel like you have a point of view that needs to be shared or you have a story that other people need to hear, then ranking on those lists or selling this number versus this number doesn’t really matter.

If you have a sense of purpose, it’s going to keep you going long-term. Having a sense of purpose that’s related to vapid or ephemeral things, it’s really hard to keep that going long-term.

Third thing is the ability to adapt. And I think this is really where companies of one or smaller businesses have a leg up on bigger businesses, because things are always changing. Even the way that self-publishing works, almost every month, it changes. When I first started publishing, there was no KDP program.

There wasn’t CreateSpace and Kindle Direct, so it was a lot harder to sell independent books. Now independent books show up in the exact same places and in the exact same way that traditionally-published books show up. They’re not sorted on Amazon. It’s just, ‘This is the book.’

Being able to adapt and being able to change, just like you said, when you’re one person or when you’re a smaller team, it’s easy to adapt and pivot. If you’re a big company, it takes a lot to move.

I can imagine how hard it would be for a company like Google to change directions entirely on what they do. They have tens of thousands of employees. It wouldn’t even happen, they’re so big.

Whereas you or I can just be like, maybe I want to write about something different. I moved from writing vegan cookbooks, to writing a book about creativity, to writing a book about online business, to where I’m at now. I can pivot whenever I want based on what my audience needs and based on what I wanna focus on.

Those three things, accepting reality, having a sense of purpose, and having the ability to adapt or pivot quickly can really help us when we’re just a smaller organizational unit to be able to make things work long-term.

I don’t want to be a writer of one book. I want to be a writer of lots of books. I want to keep going. And I think those are the things that will help me be able to keep going in the long term.

Joanna: I agree with you because if it’s not AI, it’s whatever else it is, or it’s difficulties with Amazon. There’s always a new technical challenge, but it’s the overarching concepts, I think, are really important.

I highly recommend Company of One. I really enjoyed it, and as I said, as soon as I heard the title, I wanted to buy it. I think it’s brilliant. I hope everyone listening goes and gets that.

Where can people find you and everything you do online?

Paul: So, ofone.co is the book’s website. And there’s a bunch of pre-order bonuses there.

Pjrvs.com is my website, so that’s where the newsletter that we were talking about, the ‘Sunday Dispatches’ lives. So, if you Google Paul Jarvis, I come up on the first couple pages, so I’m pretty easy to find, even though my URL is not easy to remember.

Joanna: It’s one of those really old ones, isn’t it, where you set something up and then thought about it later.

Paul: Exactly. I registered that so long ago, and it was more just to prove a point, like the URL doesn’t matter. So, I picked a really hard-to-remember one, and then it just kinda stuck.

Joanna: And hard to say out loud.

Paul: Exactly. And then it just kinda stuck. And now, I’m stuck with it.

Joanna: There’s another little tip right at the end of our show, pick something you can say out loud on a podcast.

Paul: Exactly. Like, ofone.co is way easier than pjrvs.

Joanna: Either way, thank you so much for your time, Paul. That was great.

Paul: Yeah, thank you very much.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Did you know that audiobooks are the fastest growing sector of the entire publishing industry for 5 years in a row? In today’s article, Tina Dietz shares some useful tips for making the most of audiobooks.

Statistics from Forbes show that digital audiobook revenue is up 32.1% in Q1 of 2018. The industry is current reported to be worth $3.5 billion.

One factor that contributes to this exponential increase in audiobook readership is accessibility.

Where it was once incredibly difficult to listen to books, (anyone remember having to keep track of 12 tapes or half a dozen cds while driving?) audiobooks are now available through our phones, laptops, and tablets, so people can listen to them anywhere they want, whenever they want.

As a result, more and more authors are recognizing the potential that audiobooks offer and the benefits that having an audiobook version can provide. Not only is there potential to make more money, there’s also potential to reach a much larger audience.

You’ve probably heard of other authors creating and publishing audiobooks, but you might not have any idea where to start or how they went about it!

As an audiobook publishing specialist, I see critical mistakes and bottom-line opportunities overlooked time and time again.

If you are an author keen on taking advantage of this booming advancement in publishing (and you have every reason to be), pay attention to these five factors that will bring your audiobook skill level from beginner to boss.

1. Don’t Voice Your Own Book (Unless…)

We very commonly get asked by the author whether they should narrate their own books or work with a professional narrator. It is usually one of the first things asked when someone comes in inquiring about publishing an audiobook.

Recording Business for Authors in a pro studio

While this question makes sense, it’s not the right question to be asking yourself. Instead, ask yourself, “Is there any advantage to narrating the book myself?” Usually, the answer is no.

[Note from Joanna: If you are interested in narrating your own book, you’ll find an article about how to do that here.]

One of the reasons for this is that Audiobook Creation Exchange (ACX) reports that it takes an average of 6.2 hours of production time for a professional narrator and editor to create one hour of finished audio.

What this means is that an average non-fiction book of 60,000 words requires twenty-five to thirty hours of production time, and this is for an experienced professional.

Many authors think that if they’re an experienced public speaker or podcaster it will be easier or faster, but the skill set for an audiobook narration is unique.

In addition to specialized voice training and learning the microphone and breathing techniques that are right for audiobook recordings, the time and expense for home recording equipment or studio rental time adds up to quite a bit. All in all, you can reasonably expect to triple your time investment or more.

Instead, your audiobook could be professionally produced at a reasonable cost and delivered to the world with ease in about 6 weeks. It will sound great, and you could be reaping the benefits and leveraging this asset like a boss, rather than spending your time and money going through an unnecessary learning curve.

You might be wondering if there are ever exceptions to this rule. There are…sometimes.

If you have a large following in the millions of people who are used to you speaking on stages, TED talks, or in other audio recordings, and you have built your platform and reputation around your unique voice and speaking qualities, then you might be a good candidate to voice your own audiobooks.

Otherwise, ditch the temptation to try to save money—because you won’t.

2. Know Your Rights

It might seem like a simple thing to just follow the instructions the audiobook creation sites provide, but it’s easy as an amateur to fall prey to the mistake of not knowing your audio rights. It is imperative that you understand the legalities of audiobook production so that you can protect your intellectual and financial investments.

This information is especially important for you to know if you plan to work with a publisher. Knowing your rights can help you negotiate your contract, which many authors accidentally sign away without even knowing it.

It’s too late if you find out after an audiobook version of your print book has been created, and some find themselves not receiving reasonable royalties for the sales of that audiobook. With the rise in the popularity of audiobooks, lack of attention to the detail of your audio rights can add up to substantial financial loss and a big waste of money.

3. Collect Bounties

Audible, Amazon, and iTunes have a common back end where self-published authors can produce their own audiobooks. If you hold the rights to your audiobook and distribute your audiobook through this exchange (ACX.com), you are eligible to earn bounties for even higher profits.

A bounty is on top of the money you make for any royalties you make for selling your audiobook, and it is paid to you when your book is the first purchase of a new Audible member. For each bounty earned, you receive $75.

Unfortunately, ACX is only available if you live in the U.S., U.K., Ireland or Canada, but a good audiobook publisher can help you take advantage of this opportunity as well as self-publishing royalty rates, adding significant income to your bottom line. International authors from other countries can still self-publish on Audible via outlets such as AuthorsRepublic.com and FindawayVoices.com.

4. Leverage Your Launch

Yes, there are right ways to launch an audiobook. It’s not just a matter of getting it published and assuming the sales will come in.

Authors usually come to me for audiobook production in one of two circumstances. In one scenario, you are utilizing an audiobook in order to breathe new life into a previously launched print or digital book.

Following this strategy allows you to have an entirely new book launch without having to create any new content. This is a great strategy to follow, too, if your content needs a little updating. It gives you the ability to pair an “anniversary edition” or “second edition” of your book with an audiobook version to further promote both.

The second scenario is if an author is in the process of getting ready to publish a new book. In this case, having an audiobook version will extend the life of your launch.

To have a powerful launch, you’ll want to reach as many people for as long as possible. Releasing your audiobook two to twelve weeks following your initial book release allows you to keep the momentum and excitement going with minimal changes to your social media and email promotional content.

5. Build a Podcast Tour

The publishing world today is high-tech and fast-paced, which means that doing book tours in person aren’t cost- or time-effective, so you have to find other ways to connect with your target market.

Blog book tours have been an alternative practice for several years now, but a lesser-known opportunity that exists is podcast tours.

Podcasts, or on-demand talk radio that you listen to via app or the computer, are a thriving platform for effectively broadcasting your brand. There are now nearly 60 million people in the U.S. alone listening to podcasts every month, which presents a giant opportunity for you to engage with potential readers. If they listen to podcasts, they likely also listen to audiobooks.

Find hosts of podcast shows that might intersect with your target market, and arrange to be a guest expert on their shows. Conduct a book reading, answer insider questions about the subject matter, and share how listeners can access further information about your title and services. [Note from Joanna: for tips on how to be a great podcast guest read this article.]

To really be a boss, send a short clip of your audiobook to the podcast host in advance of your interview, and invite them to post the clip along with their Amazon affiliate link to your book and audiobook. The host can also include this link in his or her website copy (or “show notes,” as they are known in podcasting) for your podcast episode.

This strategy creates more rich content for the host and an opportunity for both you and the host to benefit financially.

Work with the podcast host to have the show published during your initial launch window, and boom, you’ve successfully leveraged your audiobook to drive sales and initial rankings far beyond the level of a mere beginner.

Are you planning to expand into audiobooks in 2019? Please leave your thoughts below and join the conversation.

Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher and podcasting expert who has been featured on media outlets including ABC, Inc.com, Huffington Post, and Forbes.

Tina’s podcast, The StartSomething Show, was named by INC magazine as one of the top 35 podcasts for entrepreneurs. Tina’s company, StartSomething Creative Business Solutions, connects leaders, entrepreneurs and experts with larger audiences, resulting in expanded influence and income. Tina divides her time between the US and Costa Rica, where she’s part of a leadership team building a conscious community called Vista Mundo.

For more assistance and information about publishing an audiobook to get your message heard by even more people, download our Audiobook Production Guide and Best Practices.

Web design is about more than just looks; it’s also about function.

Your website’s design can potentially make or break you, so I’m here to help you succeed. I even have some tips for you at the end.

Before we get into the design side of things though, let’s start with the need for an author website at all.

Why is having an author website crucial?

1. Lets you shine

Your author website is all about you. Who you are, what you do, what you’ve written, and the list goes on.

You’re not fighting for space and attention from other people like on social media, and you don’t have to worry about a new algorithm getting in the way of people seeing your posts. Your website is yours and no one else’s—you have the control.

It’s a place to let you shine and show readers why they should read your book(s). It builds your brand in a much bigger way than you can on social media, which is only a small portion of space.

To be clear, I’m not hating on social media. It’s an excellent way to spread your message and create connections, but not the only way. Social media is like the extra toppings on a frozen yogurt, where a website is the yogurt. The toppings are great, but you need a solid base.

That yogurt base is customized with the type of yogurt you prefer and your favorite fruits. Your website is customized with the look and feel you want that compliments your book(s) and shows your personality.

2. Is the nucleus

Speaking of being a base, your website is the central area of your online presence. When people try to find someone online, they’re typically looking for the person’s website. A website that, after reading through, the user can be directed to the person’s social media pages.

Even if you’re starting from social media, people will often want to be directed to your website to learn more about you.

3. Is a marketing tool

Your website is one of many marketing tools to help bring in new readers. Having a website alone with no other marketing isn’t going to increase sales, but having a social media presence to bring people to your website is a good step.

As is creating an email list that people can join from your website. So is meeting people at events, where you share your business card with your website on it for them to learn more or remember to look you up. And people who find you on Amazon, for example, can go visit your website to learn more about you and your book if they’re on the fence.

Notice a pattern? Your website is vital.

4. Gives you a professional edge

Having a website makes you look professional. Think of your website as a business site (which in all honesty, it is).

When you look up a business, seeing a website immediately gives you the sense that they’re legit. Or at least are doing a darn good job of appearing that way if it’s well-designed. Websites increase trust and provide important information about the business that you won’t find elsewhere.

As an author, you’re selling yourself and your books. Give people a reason to want to keep scrolling through your website and reel them in to buy your book. Heck, you can even sell your book on your own website and earn more profit.

Seeing you as a professional in the field makes readers want to read what must be an amazing book, judging by your website design and info.

The effects of poor web design

Now, what happens if your website is poorly designed? Rather than nothing occurring, there are negatives that will likely show up.

People view websites in a similar way they view book covers. If it leaves them with a not-so-nice first impression, it can turn them away. It may give the appearance that you’re unprofessional and that if you don’t put much effort into your site, perhaps you put the same effort into your books. Poor web design loses users’ trust.

A site that’s difficult to navigate or is missing crucial information just confuses the user. You want them to not have to think.

Good web design is all about creating a site that a user ‘gets’. They don’t question why certain things are where they are, or why important pieces of information seem to be missing. The average person may not even notice if a website is well-designed, but you bet they’ll notice if it’s poorly designed.

Basically, many of the positives of having an author website diminish or disappear if the site is poorly designed. Don’t let that frozen yogurt melt away and make the toppings soggy.

How to craft a well-designed website

You’re probably wondering, how do I make my website well-designed? There are a couple options.

1. You could go the DIY route, but be sure to keep things very simple. It may not be the most spectacular website, but it could get the job done. [Note from Joanna: click here for a step-by-step tutorial on setting up your own author website.]

2. The other option is to hire a designer, which does cost money, but as long as you hire someone who knows what they’re doing, you can have a site that reaps all the benefits of a well-designed website.

If you’re going the DIY route, there are certain things you’re going to want to consider and include when designing. This is in addition to choosing a domain name, host, platform, etc.

9 significant points to consider when designing your site:

1. The look and feel of your site should reflect you and your book(s)
2. Be sure it is easy to navigate
3. Highlight your most recent book
4. Ensure it’s responsive so that it works on all screen sizes and browsers
5. It’s beneficial to have an accessible website, so those with visual impairments can still access the content
6. Implementing SEO strategies can help your site rank higher in search engines and gain more organic viewers
7. Have someone, such as a friend or professional, look over your written content for proper grammar and spelling
8. Keep things clean and simple
9. Keep a balance between written content and images

6 essentials to include on your site:

1. Key pages – a page about you (the author), a page about your book(s), a contact page, a
   privacy policy page
2. Additional pages that should be thought about – a blog, an event page, a media page
3. Features such as a newsletter (preferably with an opt-in offer such as a free chapter), endorsements from influencers, reader reviews, and awards
4. Links to where readers can purchase your book(s)
5. Links to social media
6. Call-to-actions (buttons such as ‘Learn more about my book’) that grab readers’ attention

I haven’t incorporated everything you need to consider and include into the above lists, as that would be exponentially longer and go into great detail. What I have given you are the basics to ensure you’re not missing crucial points, like links to where people can purchase your book—yes, I’ve come across this problem more than a few times with author websites.

Hopefully, you can now see the value in having an author website, especially a well- designed one.

Do you have an author website? What made you decide to create one or have it designed for you? Please leave your thoughts below and join the conversation.

Michelle Balge is an author and web designer living near Toronto, Canada. Her memoir, titled A Way Out, features her journey through, and overcoming, severe depression and social anxiety. She is now a freelance web designer at Worth It Designs, creating beautiful and functional websites for authors, those in the mental health field, and more.

[Watercolour image courtesy Hal Gatewood and Unsplash. Messy paint image courtesy Ricardo Viana and Unsplash.]

I’m an introvert – I get energy from being alone – and although I’m not shy, I do find author conferences and events difficult. Perhaps you feel the same! 

In today’s article, Nate Hoffelder from The Digital Reader shares his fears and tips for overcoming them. [Nate helps me with tech support for this website, so I’m thrilled to have him share a more personal story.]

Whether you are an introvert or extrovert, putting yourself out there can be scary, but at the same time, it is also crucially important.

You need to step out of your comfort zone and go meet people where they are because waiting for them to come to you will stifle your career.

My greatest mistake as a blogger was that I gave in to my fear of meeting people. I should have been actively pursuing every opportunity for publicity, but instead, I let my self-doubt stop me from getting on conference panels, I quietly ducked interviews, and I even let my dislike of noise keep me going to parties during conferences.

I have had a successful career as a blogger, but I also know I would have been bigger and much better well-known if I had resisted my fears (actually, gut-wrenching panic would be a more accurate description).

The same is true for authors. Yes, you can have a career even though you are avoiding public events, but you will not be as successful.

You will need to overcome your fears, and here are a few actions you can take to do that.

1. Toastmasters

One of the easier ways to talk yourself out of promoting yourself in public is to focus on the fact you don’t know what to say or how to introduce yourself. Toastmasters will get you across that hurdle.

This is an organization dedicated to helping its members learn to become public speakers, and not only will they help you learn the basics, they will also help you overcome stage fright and teach you how to cope with unexpected situations.

There are Toastmaster chapters all over the world, including in your neck of the woods. Visit your local chapter, and see if it is right for you.

[Note from Joanna: For tips on the practicalities and psychology of public speaking, check out my book, Public Speaking for Authors, Creatives and Other Introverts.]

2. Writing Clubs

Your local writing club presents an excellent opportunity for you to get used to meeting strangers and talking about your work. Join a club and commit to attending every meeting, and if you get a chance, stand up and talk about yourself.

The clubs I belong to give every attendee a chance to introduce themselves and talk briefly about what they are writing. This is your chance to get used to standing up in front of people and being the center of attention.

And once you are comfortable talking to members of the group, you can take things to the next level by either suggesting new activities or programs for the club or even by running for office.

For example, I have committed to leading a meeting in March where I will help members rewrite their social media bios. I am also planning to run for office in one or both of my local writing clubs.

If your writing club is like mine then it will always be in need of volunteers to help run things; based on my experiences, the clubs never fill all of the officer positions. Volunteer as a candidate, and you will be voted in easily.

3. Networking Groups

Another great opportunity for you to get used to meeting strangers would be a local networking group.

These groups are intended for business people to make new contacts with other business people, and while authors don’t quite fit the mold of the typical group member, a networking group can still be a great resource for authors.

Regularly attending a group’s meetings will get you comfortable talking to strangers, and it will also give you leads on local service providers including graphic designers, printers, computer techs, and accountants.

If you want additional motivation, try this: These groups can also be a great place to conduct background research for your next book.

For example, talking to local lawyers will help you work out the details of a courtroom drama, and there are a hundred other professions that you might want to use in your next book.

A local networking group will count as its members dozens of experts in diverse fields, and all you have to do is have the guts to introduce yourself and ask them questions.

You can find business networking groups through Meetup, Facebook, your local Chamber of Commerce, or through BNI (a networking group franchise organization).

4. Conferences & Book Fairs

Once you have grown comfortable talking to people in your local groups, the next stage is to branch out and meet people at conferences and book fairs.

Joanna Penn with Ian Rankin, Chelsea Cain and Lee Child at Thrillerfest in her J.F.Penn persona

If you have a local book fair coming up, set a goal of introducing yourself to ten, fifteen, or twenty people, and don’t go home until you have met that goal.

Or, if you are attending a conference related to either your day job or related to your writing, commit to exchanging business cards with a certain quota of strangers. Don’t stop until you have filled your quota,

Once this no longer scares you, it’s time to volunteer at that local book fair. Staffing the help desk, or helping to set up and break down the booths, will give you many opportunities to talk to people.

Ask people what they are writing, and tell them what you are working on, and the conversation will grow from there.

The next step after volunteering at that book fair is to commit to being on a panel at a conference. It doesn’t matter if you are an expert; agree to be on a panel when someone asks you six months or a year before the conference, and then use the intervening period to learn what you need to know.

One thing I have learned is that if someone thinks I am a good fit for their panel then they’re probably right. I accepted a couple positions on marketing panels at the BookBaby conference in November 2018 even though I didn’t think I knew very much about marketing for authors. I found that as I got ready for the conference that I really did know enough to be a good panelist.

I have good news and bad news for you about venturing out into public. The bad news is that you can’t stop promoting yourself because the growth your career will start to slow down or even stall because you are no longer recruiting a new audience.

On the other hand, the good news is that this isn’t something you have to get right the first time around. Fumbling your intro at one meeting is not the end of the world because there is always another event where you can meet new people.

Keep working at it and one day you will be the expert who advises beginners how they can promote themselves. (I am not there yet, no.)

Are you planning on being more visible in your author career? Please leave your thoughts below and join the conversation.

Nate Hoffelder has been blogging about indie authors since 2010 while learning new tech skills at the drop of a hat. He fixes author sites, and shares what he learns at The Digital Reader. You may have heard it mentioned on podcasts such as The Creative Penn, Wordslinger, or Sell More Books Show. In his spare time, he fosters dogs for A Forever Home, a local rescue group.

The opportunities for creatives continue to explode but in a world of so much fast-paced change, it can be overwhelming to navigate possibility. In today’s show, I discuss what it takes to be a successful 21st-century creative with Mark McGuinness.

In the intro, I discuss Mark Coker’s 2019 predictions [Smashwords blog], as well as Kris Rusch’s thoughts on continued disruption of the publishing industry [KrisWrites], plus how to add the podcast to your Echo/Alexa device [The Ambient].

Plus, if you want to generate multiple streams of income in 2019, check out Teachable’s Fulltime Creator Masterclass which outlines how to build multimedia online courses.

Today’s show is sponsored by IngramSpark, who I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 39,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries and more. It’s your content – do more with it through IngramSpark.com.

Mark McGuinness is an award-winning poet, a nonfiction author, a creative coach, and international professional speaker. His books for authors include Resilience, Motivation for Creative People, Productivity for Creative People, and 21 Insights for 21st Century Creatives.

You can listen above or on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or watch the video here, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• On the current climate for creatives and makers

• Having rules and boundaries around creative time and connected time

• Different types of assets creatives have, including reputational assets

• The importance of creating value with our work

• Looking through ‘the other end of the telescope’ in order to serve the reader

• The ‘ecosystem’ of a creative’s time and business

• The importance of rest and taking time off from creative work and listening to your body

• Swallowing the frog in any type of work

• Opportunities available with audio

You can find Mark McGuinness at LateralAction.com and on Twitter @markmcguinness. You can find Mark’s 21st Century Creative Podcast here.

Transcript of Interview with Mark McGuinness

Joanna: Hi, everyone. I’m Joanna Penn from TheCreativePenn.com and today, I’m back with Mark McGuinness. Hi, Mark?

Mark: Hi, Jo. Nice to be back.

Joanna: I reckon this must be fourth time on the show, maybe more.

Mark: Fourth time lucky. Let’s hope we get it right this time.

Joanna: Well, just in case people have missed your earlier interviews:

Mark is an award-winning poet, a nonfiction author, a creative coach, and international professional speaker, and a friend of mine as well, which is wonderful. His books for authors include, ‘Resilience,’ ‘Motivation for Creative People,’ and ‘Productivity for Creative People,’ all of which we have previous interviews on. And today, we’re talking about ’21 Insights for 21st Century Creatives.’ And I should have said you’re a podcaster as well. I forgot to say that.

Mark: I am, yes. That was an idea I borrowed from you.

Joanna: Well, over the years, we have borrowed ideas from each other, which I think is an important part of being a creative.

I want to start with an overarching question. This is going out at the beginning of 2019. The pace of change seems ever faster and many people are worried, I think, about some of the developments going on in the world, technological, political shifts. And I think there’s these two major differing views.

Can you start by outlining what are the two major views around creatives and the future, and how can we face the present and the future in a positive way?

Mark: There are basically two schools of thought out there. There are the enthusiasts. There are the people who are telling us, ‘This is the brave new world, and all the gatekeepers have run away and the Creatives can come out to play. And we can go direct to our audience and take control of our platforms and attract our 1,000 true fans and become millionaires overnight.’

Joanna: Or at least over 10 years or maybe more.

Mark: Well, you know, there’s varying degrees of enthusiasm.

On the other hand, there’s the doom mongers and the naysayers. These are the people who say that the internet and smartphones are actually making us dumber by eroding our attention span, that Amazon is destroying literature, Instagram’s destroying photography. Spotify or whatever is destroying the music business, and it’s getting harder and harder for Creatives to make a living.

And I know on the one hand, you talk about great opportunities that there are for authors, and then we regularly see, at least here in the press in the UK, how ‘It’s the worst time ever for authors and they’re all on the breadline’.

So, as ever, I think the truth is somewhere in between. And one thing I talk about in the book is the idea that it is always the best of times and the worst of times to be a creative. And I contrast our situation now with Geoffrey Chaucer, one of my heroes, his situation in the 14th century writing his poetry above a bustling gate and an open sewer. By and large, I think we’ve got it quite cushy compared to that.

But there’s definitely an issue particularly around technology and society that, on the one hand, technology gives us the tools to do things like this. You and I have got podcasts, we’ve got books, we’ve got blogs that go out to thousands of people every week, which was kind of unheard off when I was solo.

But on the other hand, there’s all the distraction, there’s all the interruptions, there’s the pressure to be always available and always engaging. Not to mention, sitting at the computer too long, so I think my stance is it’s a two-edged sword, but it was always thus. Whether you’re in the 18th century or the 21st century or whatever is going to be happening in the 24th century.

And our job as creatives is to try and navigate that, to take advantage of the good and minimize the downside.

Joanna: I think also it’s a constant juggling act. I don’t know about you, but I want to learn everything. I love learning more and more and both of us listen to podcasts as well. And I listen to one of your shows and I’m like, ‘That person’s interesting,’ and then you go down the rabbit hole, and you find another podcast, you find another book, and it all just gets a bit overwhelming.

I find that overwhelm, to me, the best thing to do is turn it all off and step away. I take my journal and just go analog with my hand, writing…handwriting which is kind of crazy, but it’s…

It feels like I don’t want to let it go, but you kind of have to step out of the stream sometimes to recharge.

Mark: I think it’s very important to know when you’re on-stage, so to speak, and when you’re off-stage. And either working doing focus work, or doing something that’s got nothing to do with the internet or business or writing whatsoever because creatively, not to mention health-wise, as you know, it’s essential.

If you’re always plugged in, if you’re always on, if you’re always available, your work will suffer and, sooner or later, your health will suffer too. So, personally, for me, it’s fairly easy. I divide my day into mornings when I am in airplane mode, so to speak, and I’m writing or creating.

This morning I was working on my podcast, and then afternoons, I’ll be on Skype or Zoom with clients. That’s when I have my social media time, that’s when I answer my emails, and then in the evenings, again, I’m pretty well switched off from email. I might check in on Twitter or whatever, but that’s family time for me. That’s my rhythm. Some of my clients hold their hands up in horror when I describe what a boring life I live.

But, for you, it’s think about your own life. When do you write best? When do you want to be focused? When’s the best time for you to be engaged and available? And try and have some fairly strong rules around that because that’s a way of getting the best of both worlds. What you don’t want is for one to be interrupting and being a distraction from the other.

Joanna: You definitely go into a lot more about that in the ‘Productivity’ book, which is fantastic. And I think what’s interesting about this book is you do bring in insights across the whole creative career.

I will read a couple of the great sentences from the book, and then ask you what they mean. The first one I like is, ‘Forget the career ladder. Start creating assets.’

What do you mean by that and what are some of the different asset types that authors, in particular, can be creating?

Mark: Well, this is kind of in response to, partly, my own situation and also, working with clients and talking to other creatives. It’s very easy for us to be, if you like, the odd one out in the family, or the group of friends. And to have well-meaning people close to us say, ‘Why can’t you be a bit more like your cousin George, who’s doing so well in the law firm or the accountants or whatever it is?’

And you look at cousin George, bless him, and he’s climbing the ladder. He’s got promotions. He’s got job titles. He’s got a company car. He’s got a corner office, whatever.

And on a bad day, it’s very easy to be sad and thinking, ‘And what have I got? It’s just me in my studio or in my writing desk. And I don’t know if I had another rejection, or my latest release didn’t go so well, or I’m stuck on a difficult part of the book, am I just kidding myself? Am I wasting my time?’

But if you compare somebody…I’ll give you an extreme example, someone at the very top of our industry, somebody like Stephen King. Well, he doesn’t generally worry about whether he’s in line for a promotion at the firm, or whether his job is secure, or what the people at the boardroom think of him because he’s got this body of work, which is effectively an asset, or a set of assets. He’s got all these books, he’s got a great brand, he’s got the intellectual property in the books.

That kind of recognition that if Stephen King were to email you and say, ‘Hey, Jo, do you think we could collaborate on a project?’ you’d at least take the call, wouldn’t you?

Joanna: I’d be like, ‘Anything you want, Stephen.’

Mark: Right? So, he doesn’t want for opportunities or money.

Now, maybe we’re not all going to reach that level, but even if you’ve got one book, that’s an asset for your career. That can be earning money, that can be bringing you readers, that can be growing your mailing list, your audience, your network.

If it’s a nonfiction book, you can be selling consulting and other products off the back of that. If it’s a fiction book, then that’s the start of your audience and you’ll be, of course, writing the next book and the next book and then the next book.

The more books you have, the more enthusiastic subscribers to your mailing list or followers on social media, the more people know, like, and love your work, the more opportunities you have, and the easier it is to leverage that into income.

Joanna: I wanted to ask you particularly about these different types of assets. Again, like you mentioned, I talk about books that can earn you income for the long term, but what’s interesting is you talk about different kinds of assets.

Reputational assets, I thought, was interesting because you are a poet, which is one of these things I love about you and you’re like, ‘Oh, no, I don’t just do like poetry, I do like quite serious poetry,’ and your translation of Chaucer, which has won you an award.

This is not something that is necessarily an income-generating asset, but talk a bit about reputational assets when it comes to creatives.

Mark: I think there’s three basic kind of rewards on offer apart from the sheer joy of doing it, in terms of writing or making some kind of art. You’ve got money. You’ve got fame, i.e. how many people know about you? And you have reputation in the artistic sense.

To take an extreme example again, Geoffrey Hill who died last year, widely considered within the poetry world to be possibly, the greatest living poet in English. Most people never heard of him.

Joanna: I haven’t heard of him.

Mark: And I heard him interviewed and he was saying, ‘You know, when I look at my annual royalty statements, I appear to have hardly any readers at all.’ And yet in a lot of people’s estimation, he’s a genius. He was Oxford professor of poetry, he was professor in the States, he always had plenty of opportunity and he worked really hard for that.

And again, if you’re talking about popular entertainment, writing thrillers or romance or something, it’s more at the fame-end of the spectrum. Maybe you don’t care what the ‘New York Times’ or the ‘Times Literary Supplement’ says or doesn’t say about your work, but if you’ve got millions of readers then, hey, who cares?

And I think there’s a huge difference if you’re releasing your 20th book and you’ve got thousands of people on your list and looking for your work online, to releasing the first one. So, yeah, the book is an asset, but you also need the social assets, either in terms of critical reputation that can create opportunities in your artistic field.

Or just in terms of the sheer number of fans that you have and readers that you have waiting for that next book because if you do this right, you should make a lot more money from that book number 20 than book number one.

Joanna: And it’s interesting because that reputational asset… I still want to win an award, you know? I’m award-nominated, but I’m not an award-winning author so, to me, that is an ego goal, a reputational goal.

I want to do that in my lifetime and I would probably have to give up an income goal in order to have that goal because they don’t necessarily go together. But I did want to come back on the money side.

Another quote from the book, ‘Stop trying to earn money, start creating value,’ and I thought about this a lot.

It’s definitely something that I’ve tried to do with ‘The Creative Penn’ and I find it’s easier with nonfiction in a way because it’s easier to answer someone’s problem. Someone has a problem and you can answer it with nonfiction. So you feel like, ‘Yes, I’m giving them value.’ But entertainment, which, let’s face it, fiction, poetry, I guess is entertainment. It comes under entertainment.

Mark: Even if it’s not always entertaining.

Joanna: It might come under inspiration, but it’s not usually under information.

Mark: It’s not going to help you fix your boiler.

Joanna: No. So let’s talk about creating value with fiction and poetry.

How do we change our mindset around not trying to earn money, but creating value with entertainment?

Mark: Firstly, I would suggest that we just pause for a moment and think of the billions of dollars of value in the global entertainment industry of which we are a part. So, yeah, in some sense, it’s easy to say you buy a book that’s going to help you exercise more or procrastinate less or whatever it may be. And there’s a clear practical value for that.

But there’s a huge appetite for fiction, slightly smaller appetite for poetry.

Joanna: Apparently, IngramSpark have said poetry’s their biggest segment in print publishing right now.

Mark: I should sign up to IngramSpark sooner rather than later, in that case. So, people do pay money for fiction, particularly. And I think the point I was trying to make there is just because you work really hard, you don’t get paid for suffering and working hard.

You get paid when you deliver something to market that is valued by your audience. If you’re a fiction writer and you’re doing literary fiction, it’s not going to be as easy to make money from that, as it is if you’re writing genre fiction.

And usually, people have made their peace with that. Sometimes, they haven’t and they complain about it loudly, but you’ve got to think about the reward that you want.

But if you’re interested in money, then it’s really about looking through the other end of that telescope and thinking, ‘What does the reader want? What can I give her? Is it more of this kind of book? Is it books in a different kind of format?’ And I know, Jo, you were very good at this. You’ve got all your books coming out in all possible formats.

Joanna: Pretty much.

Mark: And it’s great. And that’s a very smart thing to do, and it’s something I know you’ve nudged me to do more with my books and I can be a bit lazy about that because I want to go and write the next book, which is working hard rather than smart.

So, it’s about looking at how can I leverage what I’ve got in terms of existing assets in intellectual property? Things like film rights can come into play as well. And also thinking about well, what could I create that would have the biggest impact for the least effort.

I think that’s a really interesting question to ask. And again, I’m the world’s worst at this in some ways because I’d much rather be translating medieval poetry than writing something that’s going to be mind-bendingly useful.

Joanna: And therein lies the problem for creatives.

Mark: Right.

Joanna: And although, like you said, making your peace with it. You are at peace with the fact that you would rather spend a morning translating half a line of Chaucer or one word or whatever.

Mark: And who wouldn’t.

Joanna: Than creating another intellectual property asset, like a book in another format, for example. So, I think it does come back to mindset, and I wanted to ask you about this.

And the mindset stuff comes into the value and the earning money. So, how do we change our money mindset? Because if you were chasing after that other $100 bill, you wouldn’t do that Chaucer, but you’re not.

I’ve known you for a long time and I do find you very mature in the mindset thing. You come out of psychotherapy, you have that healthy attitude towards money, which is, yes, I’d like to make money, but, no, I’m not going to give up everything else in order to make money.

How do we balance that and change our mindset if we just think, ‘It’s how many hours I work’?

Mark: Right. So I think ‘balance’ is the word I want to put out there because it is really important. Firstly, you know yourself and you know your inclinations, so I know I just wouldn’t be happy if I was writing stuff that was designed to be purely commercial all the time.

I can look at a spreadsheet and come up with a logical argument for that, but my heart sinks just as I entertain that scenario.

You think about your work as almost like an ecosystem, so in my ecosystem, I have some time, not all day every day, devoted to poetry. I have other times devoted to making something that’s going to be useful for my audience, like a book like this or a podcast.

I also have a coaching business, which is my main business, and that’s something I definitely don’t neglect. So, typically, I spend my mornings writing, the afternoons with my clients, so I’m balancing both sides every day.

But one of the things I’ve noticed and my coach pointed out to me a while ago is that actually, my kind of clients, one big reason they want to work with me is that I am following my own path, I’m doing my poetry. I’m doing something that they respect at a reasonably high artistic level.

So, you’ve got this whole ecosystem and they all depend on each other. Like, the little fish and the jellyfish and the rays and…

Joanna: Big shark.

Mark: And the big shark, that’s right. Let’s not forget the sharks, and it’s very easy to come in and say… I believe they did this at 3M years ago. You know the people who made the post-it note?

Joanna: And earplugs. They are my favorite earplugs, 3M.

Mark: And earplugs. Well, they got some efficiency experts to come in and say, ‘Right, this company is doing really well. Just think how much better we could make them if we make them more efficient?’

So they went around the office and surprise, surprise, they found loads of examples of wastage. People hanging out by the water cooler having unproductive conversations, and office design – you couldn’t get too many people in the room, etc. And you can guess the outcome, they killed the innovation. They were in danger of killing the goose that was laying the golden eggs.

And fortunately, they realized in time and they pulled back. So, I don’t think you can look at a creative career and assess it purely in terms of efficiency and productivity. I think you’ve got to have the creative element and if nothing else, because it builds you up and it gives you energy.

If I’ve written my thing this morning, then I’m very happy to go out there and help someone else with their things as a client, or to be doing some marketing stuff and putting things out into the world that are going to help other people.

So, I think as writers, we’ve got to find that balance between what we’d ideally like to write and maybe we do that, and something that’s more pragmatic, or maybe we find something that’s a bit more of a sweet spot.

I like writing this, there’s a good market for it. I’ll focus all my efforts there.

Joanna: I think you’re right. I find as well that I need the fiction and the nonfiction to kind of satisfy both sides of me.

And also, I don’t think I would have any credibility if I was only writing nonfiction, that’s fine, but I don’t feel I could have the authority to even talk about this stuff unless I had books. So, it’s important for me even if I didn’t want to do it. It’s a credibility thing to keep creating as someone who talks to creatives, but also, as you say, it’s like a life thing. Why else are we doing this?

And I was also reminded when you were talking about that, I just spent a couple of days in London last week. I went Edward Burne-Jones, which was a Pre-Raphaelite artist. I spent about two and a half days just wandering around London, just looking at stuff and taking pictures and writing in my journal.

Some people would say that was not productive, but that gave me lots of ideas. And I’ve been on your show, obviously, talking about the healthy writer and, of course, on my show.

What’s the place for rest/relaxation/recharging when we hit burn out? And how do we incorporate that?

Mark: One of the things I say a lot to my clients is your body is your best coach. If you pay attention, it’s giving you feedback about how tired it is, or how stiff it is, or have fed up it is with being cooped up in this office, or whatever it is.

But usually, what do we do? We ignore it and we just kind of focus on here, and just, ‘I think I’ll have some more coffee and I’ll get another gadget to make myself more productive that way.’

And I’ve certainly got into trouble by doing that. I’ve had health and fitness problems from that, and I’ve learned the hard way from listening to it that actually, I need to build in more time.

So, years ago, when my doctor was kind of signing me off with stress, he forbade me from doing any work in the evenings for my exams. And he said, ‘You will actually be much more effective. You’ll be able to learn more during the day if you take your evenings off.’

Now, at that time, it felt terrifying to me, but that’s because I was stressed out. And I’m pretty well stuck to that, so it’s quite rare that I will work at the weekend or an evening these days. I’m also trying to build in more movement during the day, so I’m learning Tai Chi, partly from a little nudge I got from reading this great book called, The Healthy Writer and thinking, ‘Okay, I should be doing a bit more about that.’

And the nice thing about Tai Chi is I can do it during the day in between writing, in between clients, even in between email. You don’t need to go and get changed and you don’t get all hot and sweaty, so I can do 10 minutes here and there during the day. So that’s making a big difference.

I would say, if you’re listening to this and you’re wondering where to start, start by listening to your body and noticing what are the aches and pains, and also, one thing I noticed when I got a sit-stand desk, which is this desk, I can press a button and the desk will stand up.

But one of the things I do now is I stand until I feel like I want to sit and I sit until I feel like I want to stand. And what I’ve noticed is for years and years, I’ve been ignoring that urge to fidget and move about and get up. So, I would say it starts and finishes with the body.

Joanna: Fantastic. We’ve talked about this a lot, and I think as this goes out, beginning of 2019, let’s everybody try and listen to our bodies more because it really is so incredible. I have very much moved to mainly a lot of more plant-based eating in the last six months, and I just feel so much better for it.

I’m not recommending that everyone do that, it’s just that by listening to how things feel in the body, you can change. And changing is so important too, right? We all need different things at different parts of our lives. So, that’s important.

What worked for you two years ago might not work for you now, for example, and that’s true in our businesses as well.

Mark: If there’s one constant these days, it’s change. Again, the thing that I noticed about the happiest as well as the most successful Creatives are the ones who go, ‘Oh, everything changed again. Where’s the opportunity? What can I do?’

There’s no time to sit around and complain because the world is not going to change in relation to that. I know because I tried it for several years, and it didn’t work.

Joanna: This is something that we always talk about when we get together, it’s like, ‘So, what’s moved on since we last had a chat?’

Mark: What’s old news?

Joanna: ‘What do we need to be doing next?’ So, I do want to ask you because the book has a lot of really positive tips and things to change in terms of mindset and potentially business practices. But I love the fact you also say, ‘There is always a crappy part to any business.’

And one of the things I find is that authors are like, ‘I just want someone to do the publishing for me,’ or, ‘I just want someone to do the marketing for me,’ ‘All I want to do is write.’ And I’m sure you hear that in lots of different guises.

How do we make sure that not everything’s crappy and what are your tips in dealing with that crappy bit?

Mark: This is something I see a lot because I work with clients across all the different creative industries and arts. Authors can complain about the publishing industry, or can complain about Amazon, or whatever. People in the film industry, there’s a lot of politics. People in the advertising industry, there’s a hell of a lot of politics and a fair bit brutality as well.

One thing I noticed is that whatever path you pick, there will be a crappy part, and that will be the the proverbial frog that you have to swallow every Monday morning when you’re going to work. But the ones who are happy are the ones who say, ‘I accept this because this is the price of the bit that I love.’

If you can do that, then that’s part of turning pro, in Steven Pressfield’s language. The pro is someone who says, ‘It does suck. I’d rather be writing than marketing, but I’m going to do it anyway.’

Was it Peter De Vries, the Australian novelist. I assumed what he was saying was tongue in cheek. He said, ‘I love being a writer. What I can’t stand is the paperwork.’

Joanna: It is a bit like that. There is that bit and you just kind of go, ‘Oh, do I have to do…’ Like, you said about me putting all my books into large print and hard back. I’m thrilled about it, but boy, is it a pain in the neck because I have to keep uploading all these files and filling in these fields, but there are benefits, so I’ll do it.

Mark: It’s a tough life. There’s no doubt about it. In some aspects.

Joanna: No, it’s actually what I like about the book. And to everyone out there, it’s a good book for kicking you up the behind a little. This is not a, oh, nice-nice creative book. This is a, ‘This is how you can be more effective,’ which I like, which is fantastic.

We’re recording this just before the end of 2018, but it goes out in 2019. So I was wondering about you personally.

What are you excited about in 2019 and even beyond? What are you taking as your next steps?

Mark: On my podcast, ‘The 21st Century Creative,’ I’m into season 3 now, which is starting almost to feel like a proper podcast. And so, I’m looking to do at least another 2 seasons of that in 2019.

And one of the great things I’ve discovered about having a podcast now is that it’s a great excuse to get in touch with people and sate my own curiosity. If I see somebody making amazing art or doing something interesting with technology or personal development, I can send them an email and say, ‘Hey, I’d love to have you on the show.’

I ask them the questions that I’m curious about. So, apart from any other benefits that come from having the show, it’s just a great way of educating myself by interviewing lots of very smart people doing very clever and interesting things. So there’s the podcast.

I’m also creating another podcast which is top secret for now, but will be completely different in form and content to ‘The 21st Century Creative.’

And then I’m always learning something in my personal life, so Tai Chi is my latest enthusiasm. I’m very pleased to hear that the first thing I need to learn is a 74-move routine that takes about 3 years to learn. So, I found a great teacher who’s helping me with that.

I’m also learning Japanese which is an ongoing project, and finishing my poetry collection. So there’s always plenty to do. And I think there is maybe a bit of tough love in the book, but at the same time I do come down on the side of the enthusiasts, by the way, I do.

Joanna: Oh, yeah. Definitely. We wouldn’t be friends unless you did.

Mark: Right. And it is a great time of opportunity and there is amazing things we can do with the technology. 2019 is going to be another year of discovery.

Joanna: Exactly. I’m interested in the audio because, of course, you and I talk about this all the time. I think I may have even kicked you into doing the podcast.

Mark: You may have had something to do with that, yes.

Joanna: I’m interested because again, you have your coaching business, but you have books. You have the website, and you have a lot of technology. Many people don’t think that poets necessarily are really into tech.

Can you talk about how you think that the podcast particularly, and audio, I guess, makes a difference in your business? Because I know a lot of people are thinking about audio 2019. Audiobooks is still going nuts as we speak on Black Friday, the Alexa and Echos and everything, again, the biggest seller.

We’ve got a massive, huge scope in audio. I think 2019 is going to be big.

What are your thoughts on how it fits into how you make income with audio?

Mark: So, you mean business-wise rather than creatively?

Joanna: Both.

Mark: First of all, what I love about it is it feels like a much more direct and immediate connection. I had a blog for over 10 years before I started podcasting, and it was very interesting.

I remember one day, a client said to me…I’d been coaching the client, said, ‘I’ve been reading your blog for years, but it never occurred to me to hire you until I heard you interviewed on someone’s podcast.’ And it may have been your podcast, actually, Jo, a while ago. And she said, ‘Because then, I’ve just felt that connection, and I knew this was somebody I wanted to work with.’

So, if you are a coach or a consultant of any kind, then I think there’s a really important lesson there because what we sell is conversations. So, certainly, I’ve seen the benefit of that. I’ve had people saying, ‘Oh, when I heard your podcast, I knew I wanted to talk to you.’

Even people who find me on a search engine or via a book, nearly always by the time we have the first coaching conversation where we decide if we want to work together, they will say, ‘Oh, and I’ve been listening to the show.’ And they’ve been getting a sense of what I’d like from that, and I can point them to past episodes where I’ve actually interviewed previous clients of mine. So, certainly, from their point of view, it’s been really great.

Also, just in terms of content production, I wouldn’t say it’s quicker and easier, necessary, but I am certainly creating more content. I think one thing as I discovered that audio just take a bit more work when producing text, but again, a great tip I got from you was to start putting transcripts of the audio onto the website, so you get SEO benefits as well as accessibility from that. And I just think overall, it is a really great way to give more to the audience because I think we all feel when we hear somebody’s voice, we feel a much stronger connection to them.

I will be getting into audiobooks in 2019 so that will be hopefully, another income stream from there. So I would say certainly, if you’re curious about it, then I would say creatively and business-wise, it’s one of the best things I’ve done in several years.

Joanna: Obviously, me too. And like you, I have another podcast coming in 2019. And it’s funny, isn’t it? And also maybe you could comment on, because you used dictation a lot, so you’re actually using your voice to write your books as well.

Have you found any changes or anything different through doing podcasting and creating a different work for audio versus dictation for writing? Or are they kind of completely different?

Mark: Well, poetry is always completely different, so I quite often write that in my head and then write it down afterwards. I tried using voice recognition, it doesn’t work, so I write poetry quite slowly.

But certainly for pros, this was actually something, again, I discovered through not listening to my body. I had really bad RSI from typing too much, having the bad posture and so on. Couldn’t use a keyboard for six months which was kind of inconvenient, this was 10 years ago, when you have an internet-based business.

And I discovered Dragon NaturallySpeaking and started using it, which you could say probably saved my business because I could actually work again. But even when the RSI recovered, I discovered I preferred writing prose like this because I could make a few notes and really crank out an article or a chapter much more quickly and easily speaking than typing.

And so, I stuck with it and some of the feedback I’ve got is people said, ‘Oh, it sounds much more like your voice now when I read your book than it did before…much, much clearer, more of a flow.’

I use DragonDictate now which is the Mac version which isn’t quite as good as the PC one, but I’m not going to buy a PC.

Years ago, I did install Windows on my MacBook Pro because that was the only way I could get Dragon NaturallySpeaking to work, but now they’ve got a Mac version that’s quite good, so, there it is.

Joanna: They have. No, that’s fantastic.

Where can people find you and your books and your podcast and everything you do online?

Mark: Okay. So for the podcast, it’s 21stcenturycreative.fm, that’s the ’21st Century Creative Podcast.’ Then 21stcenturycreative.fm/21insights is where you can get the book, 21 Insights for 21st Century Creatives, and the e-book edition for that is free.

If anybody is interested in getting some help as a one to one coaching client, then my site is lateralaction.com. And you can go there and you find my other books and blogs I’ve had for about 10 years or something as well, so.

Joanna: Yeah. Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Mark. That was great.

Mark: Thank you, Jo. It’s always a pleasure.

[Image of creative with paint on his hands courtesy Alice Achterhof and Unsplash.]

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