How do people find your book when they search by asking devices with their voice, not by typing? By 2020, 50% of all searches across the internet will be voice-based, and 30% of all searches will be done without a screen. [QuoraCreative].

Voice search is happening now, and in today’s show, I talk to Miral Sattar about how you can optimize your book for better discovery.

In the intro, I mention the Amazon SMB Impact Report and how much money is going to independent authors, as well as how much investment is going into Alexa. [Business Wire] Plus, all the ways you can Build Your Business on Amazon, which includes publishing on KDP.

Today’s show is sponsored by my own courses for authors, including How to Write a Novel, How to Write Non-Fiction, Productivity for Authors, and Content Marketing for Fiction. If you want to take your learning to the next level, go to www.TheCreativePenn.com/learn to find out more.

Miral Sattar is the CEO of Bibliocrunch and the creator of Barely Bear, a smart speaker within a cuddly toy. With a background in software development and several years developing digital initiatives at Time Magazine, Miral is perfectly placed to talk about voice search for authors today.

Check out Miral’s course on Voice Search here. You can get 50% off if you use promo code: THECREATIVEPENN at checkout.

You can listen above or on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or watch the video here, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• What voice search is and why it matters

• On the penetration of voice search in different markets

• The importance of a featured snippet for your website

• Optimizing search results for things other than your name

• Keyword tools to use to work with natural language search

• The increasing importance of publishing wide because of voice search

• On rewriting fairy tales for the modern age

• Barley Bear, a cuddly toy that will tell your child a story

You can find Miral Sattar at LearnSelfPublishingFast.com and on Twitter @miralsattar

Transcript of Interview with Miral Sattar

Joanna: Hi, everyone. I’m Joanna Penn from TheCreativePenn.com. And today, I’m here with Miral Sattar. Hi, Miral.

Miral: Hi, Joanna, how are you?

Joanna: I’m great. It’s good to have you on the show. Just a little introduction.

Miral is the CEO of Bibliocrunch and the creator of Barely Bear, a smart speaker within a cuddly toy. With a background in software development and several years developing digital initiatives at “Time Magazine,” Miral is perfectly placed to talk about voice search for authors today, which is just a super topic.

What is voice search, because some people might not know, and why is it increasingly important?

Miral: Voice search is speech recognition technology. It’s based on a natural language called natural language processing.

The way it works is instead of typing in your commands, like typing in 40 words, you can actually say 150 words and get the results that you want. Siri works with voice search. Amazon’s Alexa works with voice search. Microsoft Cortana, Google Home pod, they all work with voice search.

Joanna: Many listeners, I presume, will be using voice search in some way.

Give us some examples of how it’s different with voice search to typing.

Miral: Let’s say if you’re looking for a book, if you type it in on a browser, you would type in nonfiction 2018, whatever period that you’re looking for.

But if you’re actually talking through your phone, you would say, ‘Hey, I’m looking for a book from the historical period of the 1500s, romance…’ That’s kind of what the main difference is. It’s based on longtail phrases and questions.

It’s basically like asking you a question versus just typing in two or three keywords.

And with authors and with people who are optimizing for voice search, you have to get into the mind of, ‘Hey, who’s looking for my content? What kind of questions would they ask somebody else, and what type of things would it return?’

Right now, Amazon, we’re so used to just optimizing just keywords and keyword phrases. But with voice search and natural language processing, you have to kind of think about, let’s say, I’m looking for Michelle Obama’s ‘Becoming’ book.

Say, ‘Hey, Siri, can I buy Michelle Obama’s ‘Becoming’ book?’ Or if I’m looking for a guide to New York City, I would say, ‘Hey, Siri,’ or, ‘Hey, Alexa, what is a great guide about New York around me?’

So you have to think about phrases and actual longtail keywords versus just like the 6 to 10 keywords that were used to putting in.

Joanna: Which is such a big mindset shift for some of us. We’re a similar age, not being kids with the internet, but getting the internet and then developing our search for this typing market.

I find it difficult to use voice search myself because I’m so fast with typing it. It actually feels longer for me to formulate a question.

Miral: Also, Alexa can be pretty frustrating sometimes. I think I saw a study that said Alexa returns what the book’s about 30% correctly, and that’s a big deal. Publishers and authors are losing a lot of opportunities because of the poor search functions.

So if I went and said, ‘Hey, Siri,…’ I hope it doesn’t launch right now. ‘Hey, Siri, who’s Joanna Penn?’ It’s going to launch your website, but then it’s going to show me your snippet that you put on your website. So it’ll tell me exactly who you are.

Joanna: I was at London Book Fair recently, and a report came out from Score Publishing, and Bradley has been on the show as well. It says ‘New York Times’ bestselling authors and their publishers stand to lose as much as $17 million this year in book sales because of poor voice assistant search recognition. So that backs up exactly what you’re saying there.

Can you give us an overview? You’ve mentioned some of the main assistance like Siri, and Alexa, and everything.

What is the penetration like? Are we talking only rich people in America have these devices?

Miral: No. Actually, for voice search, a report came out by Adobe, about 50% of users by 2020 will be using voice search. So, that’s half the world, and this is not just the United States. This is like half the people in the world who have access.

And depending on the country that you’re in, the mobile adoption is different. Like in China, it’s completely different than it is in the U.S. because we’re app-based. We first started out with desktops. But I was reading a report on China, they started out with mobile only. It’s not mobile first, they’re mobile only, so a lot of the voice prompts are voice prompt first.

So, 50% adoption in the world, which I think is a pretty, pretty incredible number. And a lot of these results that you get are not optimized. They’re not optimal.

If I didn’t know the rules about how to get my book on Audible…before I had connected my Alexa to my Audible account, I said, ‘Hey, Alexa, find me Michelle Obama’s ‘Becoming.” And she said, ‘I can’t find that book right now,’ which is a little ridiculous because it’s the number one bestseller on our Amazon and nonfiction in the United States.

But I went through the Amazon page, I figured out how to connect it, and then it said, ‘Oh, Michelle Obama’s ‘Becoming,’ it’s not in your library. Would you like to purchase it?’ But you have to get the exact prompt right and say, ‘Alexa read, ‘Becoming’ by Michelle Obama. And the phrases have to match exactly; it’s the title and the author.

Joanna: I think this is important, I feel like we’re early on. It is frustrating to use these voice assistants. As you say, you always try something, and then you have to try something else. But let’s not forget that most of us do that with typing as well. We type something into Google, and it doesn’t quite return what we want, so we type something else.

I guess what we’re saying is, most things are not optimized right now for voice search because we’ve just spent 20 years optimizing for typing.

Would you say that some of these issues will resolve over time as more and more people are using it?

Miral: I think the speakers will get smarter. And I originally used to call them smart speakers, but then I realized nobody understood what I was talking about. I was actually talking about smart speakers, and someone was like, ‘You mean people who are really good at speaking?’ And I said, ‘No, smart speakers like Google Home, Amazon’s Alexa…’

Joanna: It’s the Echo, isn’t it? Because Alexa the assistant but the Echo is the…

Miral: Yeah. Amazon Echo, but the natural term is called Amazon’s Alexa. And even though it’s Echo Dot, and the different types of Echo devices that they have, that is actually a smart speaker. Yes, you’re right.

So then I started calling them Amazon’s Alexa and Apple’s Siri voice assistants, so those are the assistants. Cortana, Alexa, Siri are the name of the assistants for the devices that they actually belong to.

Joanna: We mentioned the developing markets there. And what I find interesting is that the Android devices are much more used in other markets because of the price point. Amazon did have a phone briefly, but then got rid of it.

So realistically, if we’re talking that search is on mobile, we’re talking Android devices, Apple devices, and then other Microsoft devices. Which I think is what’s interesting because, at the moment, it just feels like Amazon’s Alexa is everywhere.

But actually, they don’t have the mobile penetration through things like Google.

Do you feel like the Google Home pod or the Google search through the phone has a stronger marketplace elsewhere where Amazon is not so dominant?

Miral: Amazon has the largest market share. It has about 41% market share for speakers in the United States and 31% globally. But if you look at Google, they’ve grown over 400% over the last 5 years. So they’re actually the fastest growing.

On their Google support forums, they actually have guides for these are the optimizations and that they’re going to be using things like the featured snippet that you have on your homepage to actually return results through voice search.

Because a fundamental difference between web browser’s search, mobile search, and searching through a smart speaker is if you type of query on a web page, if you’re a top 10 result, you’re in good shape. But if you’re a number nine and you’re searching mobilely, then you don’t make it to the front page of a mobile device.

Maybe you make it…maybe if it’s a longer screen, you’re like the fourth result. But for a smart speaker, if you’re not the first result, then you’re kind of nowhere. You have to keep on saying, ‘Next.’

Joanna: It’s interesting because my husband has an Apple Watch, and there’s only room on that tiny screen for a few lines. So, there’s not even a first page. It’s like there’s only one thing, which is kind of crazy.

You’ve mentioned the featured snippet. Let’s get into that because all the authors listening and going, ‘Okay, so how do people find my book? How am I going to do a snippet?’

What is a featured snippet, and how can we do that?

Miral: If you go to the Google support page, it’s based on your meta description on how you set your meta description on each page.

Joanna: Of your website, that you wrote?

Miral: Yeah, on your website. Let’s say if you go to TheCreativePenn.com, your featured snippet says, and I pulled it as an example, ‘I’m Joanna Penn, award-nominated ‘New York Times’ and ‘USA’ bestselling author…’

Joanna: Yay, me.

Miral: Yeah. ‘And award-winning creative entrepreneur.’ But then I googled another well-known person, and their snippet was,’I had a chance to catch up with the blog’s founder,’ I’ll leave his name out, ‘and took the opportunity to find out what he’s been up to.’ So it’s not actually about his main blog, it’s just the beginning of the post.

What a lot of authors do is when you need to SEO optimize your whole blog, you need to individually come up with a description for each blog post on your blog, especially your homepage, and just summarize to see if you can condense it into one sentence on what your blog is about because that’s what’s going to show up on your smartphone.

If I say, ‘Hey, Siri, tell me about Joanna Penn…’ I’ll actually do that right now. I’ll say, ‘Hey Siri, who’s Joanna Penn?’

Siri: Okay, I found this on the web for, ‘Who is Joanna Penn?’ Take a look.

Miral: Okay, so you are the top result.

Joanna: Yay.

Miral: And then the snippet shows, ‘Joanna Penn is an award-nominated ‘New York Times’ and ‘USA Today’ bestseller.’ So, you basically have like 10 sentences.

So you want to make sure everything is condensed in your meta description that you set on your homepage, and you can do that through an SEO plugin. If you’re doing a blog post or you writing about a specific topic, you can actually set that.

It’s just basically one sentence, condense it as much as possible, and set it on every blog post that you write, or at least on all the main pages, or your homepage because the homepage for most authors are what shows up in search results because they probably are the most traffic pages, or their book’s page.

A lot of authors have the list of their books on their web pages. So an example of a good meta description would be all of Joanna Penn’s books, and then list out the most popular one. So if someone is searching through mobile, then they kind of get that idea to give them an idea of who you are, and it’s correct.

Joanna: First of all, just for listeners, if people use WordPress, then the Yoast plugin has this metadata snippet thing. So, that’s one plugin.

And you’ve just reminded me to update my older pages because you’re right, these older pages, like my book’s page, I probably haven’t updated that snippet for 10 years. I probably do need to update that. So people listening who have an older blog, update those most common pages.

But then the other thing is that, if people are looking for me and they know my name, then searching for my name means they get me. But that’s not what most of my traffic is.

For example, on The Creative Penn a common search is, ‘How do I self-publish a book?’ So let’s go to that kind of search, or fiction authors, it might be, like you said at the beginning, ‘What is a historical romance set in the Regency period?’

How do we optimize for those questions so that we can be found when people don’t know who we are?

Miral: When people don’t know who we are? How do we optimize? What I found really helpful just for SEO purposes, browser SEO, is having an FAQ page, which lists out all the common queries that someone would ask and then share it.

Let’s say you don’t know who you are, but you still want traffic. The way SEO works is, first, you have to have good web rank. You have to have a good rank, you have to be mobile optimized, and you have to have fast page speed. And there’s tools that you can use to actually test those things. So those are the basics.

If the web is finding that you’re not loading fast, you’re not mobile optimized, you’re going to be further, further, further down. So those are the basic things that you need to fix first, right, is first you need to SEO optimize your basic web page.

And then once you’ve mastered that, and let’s say you’re searching for historical…let me see an example, a history of partition in South Asia, right? If you’re searching for that type of book, I would probably put in the meta description exactly a summary of that in addition to the keywords.

The keywords actually help the discovery in Amazon and Google, but the actual sentence that summarizes it will be in your meta description. So you want to make clear that that’s what the browser sees and that’s when people returning your search results see.

You should already have a higher ranking, but then you want to be able to also translate those keywords. And then there’s tools that we can use and come up with phrases based on the keywords that you use for your book. I’m just going to use this. Don’t hate me for using this, vampire fiction.

Joanna: No, we love vampire fiction around here.

Miral: ‘What is the best vampire fiction novel?’ And it will probably say…

Joanna: ‘Twilight.’

Miral: On your actual page, you would put in the different keywords. But then based on the different keywords, you should come up with phrases on your FAQ page to guide the reader, and also, in that little snippet that you have, what your book is about in a query form.

What is the best vampire fiction today?’ And then that’s probably what a person is going to search for when they’re looking for vampire fiction. And then there’s different tools. I actually have a list of them that you can use to actually work on your natural language search.

There is Keywords Everywhere, which I really love, and then there is the Google Keyword Planner, which shows you the most popular, and I’m sure authors use that frequently.

The Moz mobile checker, what you could do is you could look at your competition and see who’s linking to them and what keywords are being used by them and then just kind of adopt them to your own.

Joanna: And, of course, our friend Dave Chesson at KDP Rocket would be the other one.

I’m going to summarize what you’re saying because I know for some people, this might be a little bit technical. But actually, if you control your own website, this is not that difficult.

So I got from you there that I should go to each of my books, each of my book pages, and go to my snippet in my metadata and update that per book page to try and respond to people’s search. Now I haven’t done that. I don’t even know if I’ve done the SEO on my book pages on my website, so I’ve got two actions so far out of this, which is fantastic.

I think that a lot of authors listening are going to go, ‘Okay, yeah, fair enough. But most people are not actually buying books on my website. They are buying books from Amazon, Kobo, Apple Books. They’re buying an audiobook from Audible, or Findaway, or wherever, one of the many places you can buy books. So, we have no control over the metadata on those sites.’

So are there any ways that we can upload our descriptions and our keywords.

How can we optimize or help people find our books on these other platforms?

Miral: That’s where content marketing comes in and promotional images. I’m sure a lot of listeners are familiar with the Stephen King library, and the Stephen King library is now available on Alexa, on the Echo devices, and it’s also available on Google.

But my parents have a Google Home device, and my brother has a Google Home device, and we have Alexa Dot in our home. So when I was trying to search for it, I said, ‘Hey, Alexa, I’d like to listen to Stephen King.’ And it said, ‘I don’t know. I can’t find what you’re looking for.’ And then I said, ‘How could that be? That’s kind of strange.’

And I said maybe it’s not available yet. And then when I went home to visit my parents, I said, ‘Hey, Google, I’d like to listen Stephen King,’ and it didn’t really understand my prompt. And then finally, I googled, and I said, ‘How do I access the Stephen King library?’

And then the publisher, they created images that exactly tell you what the exact prompt should be. And if you don’t use the exact prompt, it’s not going to understand what you’re saying, and the speaker won’t understand how to get the book. So the exact prompt for Alexa, if you have an Alexa device is, ‘Alexa, open Stephen King library.’ That’s it.

Joanna: Everyone, Stephen King is now open.

Miral: Yeah. Then you hear his voice, and he’s telling you about his collection. I was like, ‘Oh, yes, I got it. This is awesome.’ And then the same thing with Google Home, it’s like, ‘Hey, Google, open Stephen King library.’

But on the publisher web page and all the blog posts about it, they actually have an image design that just displays that text that says, ‘Open the Stephen King library.’ They have a full page dedicated just on how to access it.

It’s mostly educating readers on how to get your book. The complicated thing about Amazon is that it won’t actually search Audible books unless you’ve actually connected Audible to your actual device.

And Google Home doesn’t let you purchase devices from Google Home. You have to upload them to Google Play, purchase them on Google Play, and then ask Google to read that book that’s on there. But they’re improving it. And pretty soon, I’m pretty sure the feature’s going to come with the ability to purchase.

For Amazon Alexa, they’ve integrated music purchasing. My daughter accidentally purchased songs, and then I realized I should actually put the children controls on there so she can’t purchase any other things. It’s like, ‘Hey, Zara, do you want to purchase Amazon music to listen to Mother Goose rhymes?’ And she said, ‘Yes,’ and I was like, ‘What are these charges that just showed up?’

So the Alexa and Amazon Echo devices have integrated Alexa voice assistant for purchasing, so it’s a matter of educating your readers how to exactly do it. And the first thing is having an audiobook because they will find audiobooks.

Then they will find audiobooks that are in the Kindle store that are borrowed from the Kindle owners lending library if you’re part of Kindle Unlimited, or if you have Prime Reading, then you have access to those audiobooks. And also, if you have another family member who has the audiobook, I can access it as well.

So it’s just making sure that your audiobook is uploaded to Audible through the various platforms or through iBooks. So actually, I did a test, and I said, ‘Hey, Siri, on my iPhone, find me Joanna Penn’s books.’

Siri: These books by Joanna Penn’s are available on Apple Books.

Miral: And then it launches iBooks, and it shows me all the books that you’ve published. And it has all your nonfiction books because I think all your nonfiction is published under Joanna Penn, and all your fiction is published under J.F. Penn.

But I noticed a couple of days ago when they updated the Kindle app, they actually had a little message in there that said, ‘In coming weeks, you’ll see a Siri shortcut to open your most recently read Amazon Kindle book.’ So they are going to have the ability to teach users how to launch your book from Kindle.

Joanna: There’s a few things here. First of all, you are searching on an Apple device, and it opened Apple Books, which makes sense, because they want to keep you in the Apple ecosystem.

And you can’t actually buy books on the Kindle app or the Audible app on an iPhone. It says you can only get samples, because they don’t want the in-app purchase thing to happen. So I’m wide with my books. I published my books wide for e-book and audiobook. So this is another thing for people to consider, I think.

If you’re in KDP Select, you’re only going to come up if you’re searching through, say, an Alexa, or if you use one of those other shortcuts. Whereas if you’re on Google Play, and this is why I think Google Play is increasingly important because of the Android devices and because their phones are cheaper, that’s going to give better penetration over time.

Plus, we’ve just seen, as you and I speak, Apple has just launched a credit card, which, I’m just like, ‘What the hell.’ And that, to me, is something that dents their image.

Miral: We need more credit cards, don’t we?

Joanna: What? What are they doing? Why are they becoming a finance company? I’ve been an Apple person for like 10 years, and that is kind of difficult. But I know people who’ve left that ecosystem and also left the Amazon ecosystem because of a protest against the domination of these companies.

It is really interesting what’s happening.

I guess that’s my plea for wide publishing because if you’re not on all the platforms, then you’ll only be searchable through certain assistants.

Miral: You should have an audiobook if you want to be accessible through voice search because if you’re doing voice search, you probably want to listen to the book and you probably want to purchase the book that you’d like to listen to.

And also, an interesting fact: I went to a podcast conference a couple of weeks ago, and podcasts are kind of competing, and just telling good stories and sharing good stories are competing against the Hulus, and they’re competing against the Netflix because it’s a form of entertainment.

It’s much quicker to actually listen to a book than to actually sit there and read it. You can do it on your commute. You can do it on your train.

I see people listening. Sometimes I see them with their audio device, their Audible app, so you could see the thing working on the train. And it’s nice because, in our trains, we don’t have Wi-Fi so you kind of need an offline experience.

You are seeing the growth of audio as entertainment. And a lot of publishers are putting certain types of contents on podcasts, the ‘Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls’ they put a lot of their audiobooks on podcasts.

We listen to them, and we love them. And it’s kind of like listening to a show, and authors also have the unique opportunity of kind of providing that same experience. So, that’s why it’s really important to have an audiobook. And there’s different places, I think, to get it.

You could do ACX, you could do Findaway Voices. Findaway Voices actually uploads it to all the platforms. But similar to other other places like Smashwords and Jump Digital, they do take a cut on top of that.

If you do an audiobook, you should have it everywhere. You should have it in iBooks, you should have it on Amazon, in Kindle Unlimited. If you want it to be prioritized in Alexa, you can also have it uploaded to Google Play. So you kind of want to maximize the different places where you upload your books.

Joanna: Yeah, just to be clear, if you’re in Kindle Unlimited or…

Miral: KDP Select.

Joanna: …KDP Select, yeah, you can’t be everywhere, and I’m going to do a completely separate podcast on going wide. You can be in KDP Select for your e-book and go wide with your audiobook. So yeah, there’s nothing stopping people doing that.

If people want to be in Select for e-book, completely fine, but why not go wide for audio, especially this I think this is a growth area. All the statistics show that it is.

It’s interesting you mentioned podcasts there. Obviously, I now have two podcasts, and my main way of making a podcast findable is using transcripts because they are natural language, and they are us speaking.

Do you think that having a transcript as opposed to just bullet point show notes would make that more findable?

Miral: I think transcripts are really good for SEO, so it would make it more findable on the web. Plus, there’s a lot of new podcast companies evolving, or they’ve also launched like there’s a couple that have just gotten $100 million in funding to make podcasts more searchable.

Because the iPhone, Apple, has the largest podcast network but they don’t really focus on discovery, and I think they have one engineer dedicated to their whole podcast section.

There are other companies who are leveraging the podcast success. And if you think about it, a podcast is an iPodcast, right? They came up with the idea, but I don’t know if they’re going to do that much with it. They haven’t really invested so other companies are actually doing it, and they are scraping data from podcasts and podcast notes, so a transcript definitely helps.

Joanna: At the moment, as you say, audio is not searchable, like just plain audio is not searchable so you have to have some searchable way of doing it. But this to me feeds into the AI discussion because, over time, they will find some way to take our real-time voices, create whatever they create, and then make it searchable. I’m pretty sure it will come, but not right now.

Let’s talk about your Barely Bear, which I’ve seen when we met in Philadelphia, which is a smart speaker in a cuddly toy. So because you have young kids, so what is it?

Why do parents like audio and voice search?

Miral: I read a report a long time ago. I like audio because it’s a way to help kids learn and also improve their listening skills without staring at a screen. We minimize screens because…I mean, other people have different types of children. But my kids, when they’ve been on an airplane, and we let them use screens on the airplane, and the minute we take it away from them, they get very aggressive and they become hostile.

But there is actually a study that I read that did say that, for a lot of kids, the side effect is it’s like crack. And once you take it away from them, they get like really aggressive. And I was like, ‘Wow, that’s just like my kids.’

We don’t really let them watch TV because they’re still young, and they’re Montessori kids. And they’re all about like physical experience, and improving your listening skills, and learning through manipulatives, and hands.

At nighttime when my children, like most children…my children are three and five-and-a-half. One would come out and be like, ‘I’m hungry,’ and the other one would be like, ‘I need water,’ and like, ‘I have to go to the bathroom.’ I was like, ‘You just went. But if you want, go again.’

So then what I did is I actually got this little cheap speaker, and I said, ‘Okay, you can listen to the Nutcracker, but you can only listen if you stay in your room.’

And then for my son, I said, ‘You can listen, but you can only listen to this music while you’re in your crib.’ And then at one point, I found that they were hugging the speaker, and I felt really, really sad.

I said, ‘Okay, maybe we should have something a little bit more loving and engaging.’ So that’s where the idea of Barely Bear came from. And then while we’re looking for stories, and they don’t like the traditional stories like ‘Thumbelina’ or the traditional princess stories because they’re all about saving a princess, and there’s always some part that’s been edited. I think the original ‘Sleeping Beauty’ story, she woke up with child, which is a little insane.

Joanna: Those Grimm stories are pretty grim, to be honest, the original ones.

Miral: I was like, ‘Wow. I don’t want my daughter listening to these.’ So we rewrote a bunch and we updated them for modern time so you can actually listen to stories through the little Barely Bear.

Joanna: Which is just awesome. And what’s so interesting, your kids were cuddling the speaker. And that’s fascinating because I think it’s partly this kind of comfort of listening.

I was reflecting that I remember listening to ‘Peter and the Wolf,’ the Prokofiev version with the classical music when I was young, and I guess it would have been on tape because it was all on tape back then, wasn’t it? But you have an emotional connection to the story, and they were cuddling it, which is awesome.

What’s happening with Barely Bear? Are you selling it? Are you licensing it? What’s going on?

Miral: We’re kicking it off the Kickstarter next month, actually, on barelybear.com, so stay tuned.

Joanna: That’s fantastic because you’re an entrepreneur, and you’ve started lots of companies, and you run your own companies and this is brilliant stuff. And, of course, then you will have the content for it as well. And this is the way it’s going, which I think it’s fantastic.

You and I, being a bit older…I mean, I’m not that old, in our 40s, how we use voice is different.

How do your kids talk to the speaker? How is their use of voice search different to ours?

Miral: Well, they’ve never done a Google search, or they’ve never done a mobile search. So my daughter will say, ‘Alexa, play Mother Goose songs,’ and then I kind of saw that translating into…it’s very command based.

I think there’s a skill that you can turn on an Alexa called ‘polite mode.’ So now she has to say, ‘Alexa, please play Mother Goose songs,’ and then she has to say thank you.

They’re growing up where command prompts are the way to get access to what they need when they’re listening to things. And I know friends who have smart TVs, and the kids just say, ‘Open Netflix,’ and you can open Netflix.

My kids are growing up in a totally different way. When I was growing up, that’s when we introduced dial-up modems.

Joanna: Remember them?

Miral: And then when the speed doubled to 2,400, we thought it was like the most exciting thing ever. I was like, ‘Wow, the speed doubled.’

They’re kind of growing up in a completely on-demand economy, which, there’s positives and there are negatives, but they’re going to be trained in voice search. The more the AI improves, the more input they get, then the more it’s going to improve. So, it’s good.

But I prefer smart speakers because…and a lot of parents I know prefer smart speakers because of the whole listening thing. It makes car rides more bearable. They can listen to a story instead of just watching a screen.

Joanna: You just kind of sparked something there. You said they’re used to asking for what they need and, I mean, that’s the same when we go looking for a book. So maybe some people say, ‘What’s the best vampire novel this week?’ or something.

But someone else might say, ‘I’m feeling really depressed with the state of politics. Tell me a book that will make me happy and escape from my life for a bit.’ That need is what we meet with fiction, I think.

Or they might go with a question, you know, ‘I’ve got a rash on my stomach, tell me what that is.’ That need to fix something.

I think this is probably the big message for everyone listening is this is the way search is going, but you need to be putting yourself in the head of the person searching, which is pretty…and like you’ve been showing us testing it, I love that you’ve been sharing with me, obviously.

And that’s the thing, people listening, just give it a go and see what you say and what comes up. That’s probably the best thing.

You have an awesome course on how authors can do voice search and lots of other things.

Tell us, where can people find you, what’s in the course, and where is everything you do online?

Miral: You can find me on Learn Self-Publishing Fast, and we have a bunch of courses. And our newest course is our voice search optimization course and how to leverage Amazon’s Alexa, Google Home pod to actually sell books.

So it’s Learn Self-Publishing Fast, we have step-by-step videos, and then we have training exercises and materials to help you do the optimizations.

And then for everyone who’s listening, we’ll also give you access to our full SEO course, and our Amazon keywords course, as well, which are video courses. But we also have the training packets as well that go along with those courses.

Joanna: So that’s learnselfpublishingfast.com?

Miral: Yes, yeah.

Joanna: There we go. Fantastic. And if anyone has any questions, they can find you there?

Miral: Yes.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Miral. That was great.

Miral: Thank you.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Should you publish exclusively on Amazon or should you publish your books wide, making them available on every platform, in every country and every format possible? In today’s episode, I explain your options and my own choices as an independent author.

In the introduction, The Amazon Conundrum, Lindsay Buroker’s thoughts on KU; Draft2Digital announce Reading Lists carousel tool; AI and Creativity with Professor Marcus du Sautoy; You Can’t Take My Door [The Next Web]; Google Poem Portraits [Google blog]; AI music and copyright [The Verge]; plus my personal update and how scuba diving has shaped some of my books [Books and Travel podcast]. Plus, join me at The Career Author Summit in Nashville, May 2020.

Today’s podcast sponsor is Findaway Voices, which gives you access to the world’s largest network of audiobook sellers and everything you need to create and sell professional audiobooks. Take back your freedom. Choose your price, choose how you sell, choose how you distribute audio. Check it out at FindawayVoices.com.

Joanna Penn (yes, me!) is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers under J.F.Penn and also writes non-fiction for authors. She’s also a podcaster and an award-winning creative entrepreneur. Her site, TheCreativePenn.com has been voted in the Top 100 sites for writers by Writer’s Digest.

You can listen above or on iTunes or your favorite podcast app, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• What is Amazon ebook exclusivity? KDP Select and Kindle Unlimited
• The benefits and drawbacks of exclusivity on Amazon
• Going wide with print
• Going wide with audio
• Marketing when publishing wide

You can find lots of detail about publishing options here, or in my updated book, Successful Self-Publishing, available as a free ebook on all the usual stores or direct download, as well as print and large print editions.

Any questions or thoughts, please leave a comment on this post, or tweet me @thecreativepenn

Introduction

In the early days of the independent author movement, the most heated online discussions were about when the ‘stigma’ of self-publishing would go away, whether traditional publishing or self-publishing would rule supreme, and when ebook sales would kill off print.

Those discussions have mostly disappeared now and the main split in the author community is about whether to publish exclusively on Amazon or ‘go wide,’ meaning to publish on all platforms in all markets.

I get questions every week on my podcast, email and social media about publishing wide and at London Book Fair a few months back, most of the questions were about this topic. Since there are so many misunderstandings, I’m going to outline the current state of publishing wide and the pros and cons of exclusivity.

Clearly, this is my opinion and I’m biased towards my own experience and global perspective, but I hope that you will find it useful.

Even if you do stick with exclusivity for ebooks, I hope you’ll consider going wide with print and audio in order to expand your reach and diversify your income streams.

What is Amazon ebook exclusivity? KDP Select and Kindle Unlimited

Amazon is the only platform that has an exclusive ebook program meaning that you cannot publish your book to other sites like Google Play, Kobo, Apple Books, or to library digital eco-systems, or even sell direct from your own site. Readers have to be within the Amazon eco-system to read your book.

KDP Select is an opt-in program available to authors who publish through the Amazon KDP dashboard as well as some traditionally published authors who negotiate through agents and publishers. There is a check-box per book, and you opt-in for 90 days of exclusivity, which is automatically rolled into the next 90 days unless you specifically opt out.

To be clear, this means you can’t publish the book on any other platform, including your own website, or in any boxsets, during this period. You are licensing exclusive rights to Amazon to publish your ebook within the period you opt-in for.

If you opt in to KDP Select, your books are available in Kindle Unlimited (KU), a subscription program where readers pay a fixed amount per month and can borrow and read unlimited books. It’s described by some as the “Netflix for books” and encourages unlimited reading within the platform, attracting hardcore readers (sometimes called ‘whale readers’) who would usually have to pay a lot more to read that much. Indie authors can only be in KU if they opt in with KDP Select as above, although some exceptions are made for big sellers.

Authors are paid based on Kindle Edition Normalized Page Count (KENPC), basically, pages read, from a pot of money shared between KU authors at the end of each month. This amount changes every month and is determined by Amazon. There are also All-Star bonuses for the top sellers.

You can still set a retail price and sell your book to other Amazon purchasers who are not in KU, but you are not in control of your KENP.

Note: You can still publish on Amazon KDP and not enter KDP Select, as I do. 

The benefits of exclusivity

KU is its own ecosystem with a sub-set of voracious readers who only borrow books within the program. At the time of writing, KU is available in US, UK, Italy, Spain, Brazil, France, Mexico, Canada, Germany, India, Australia, and Japan. The program is being rolled out in the biggest book markets globally, so the number of readers is increasing. Of course, your books are available for sale as well, so readers who are not in KU can still buy them on the Amazon platform.

Some genres sell very well in KU and some authors make great incomes by publishing only within KU, but it doesn’t work for every author and every book, even within a popular genre.

Discoverability is easier because anecdotal evidence suggests that the Amazon algorithms favor books in KU and that Amazon ads are more effective for KU page reads.

There are also promotional options every 90 days including five days of free promotion, which can be good for getting reviews, and Kindle Countdown Deals, time-bound promotional discounting for your book.

For some international markets, you can only get 70% royalty if your book is in KU, applicable for Japan, India, Brazil, and Mexico. If you’re not in KU, you can only get 35% in these markets, even though you might get 70% in the other countries. Although these are not significant markets for most indie authors right now, they are a big focus for global growth.

It’s also easier to manage book content and price changes. Timing promotional price changes across stores is one of the big pain points if you publish wide. You can schedule a price change on Kobo and Apple Books, but Nook can take a few days, and Amazon’s speed of change varies between 4-72 hours. Similarly, if you want to change back matter or fix a typo, you have to do it multiple times on multiple stores.

Of course, you can use aggregator services like Draft2Digital, PublishDrive, Streetlib or Smashwords to update once for all platforms, but if you are exclusive to Amazon, you only have to manage one site and one set of changes per book.

If exclusivity sounds great, that’s because it is!

If you only have one book and are just starting out, then it’s definitely worth trying KDP Select at least for the first 90 days. You will have enough on your plate trying to learn lots of new things about publishing and marketing anyway.

Or, if you have several books in unrelated niches, then it’s also potentially worth doing. You may even decide that you want to run your entire author business on Amazon, and that’s certainly your choice to do so.

So why aren’t I in KU?

I’ve been wide since I first self-published in 2008 and both my author names — Joanna Penn for non-fiction and J.F.Penn for fiction — have always been wide.

I briefly tried KDP Select with a new pen-name, Penny Appleton, that I started with my Mum, mainly to see what all the fuss was about, but I pulled those three books out after a short time. Here’s why.

The drawbacks to exclusivity

I was one of the first people in Australia to purchase the Amazon international Kindle when it came out in 2009. [Check out my embarrassing video here!] I’ve been a happy Amazon customer ever since, a voracious reader who has spent many thousands of dollars (and pounds) on the site.

Reading the 1st Kindle in my hammock in Australia, 2009

I’m a Prime member for the free shipping but I am not a KU subscriber. My own Kindle library has 1864 books in it at the time of writing this, all of which I have purchased over the years. I love reading!

As I have mentioned before, authors can be a self-sustaining community because we read far more books than we can ever write. This is why I want everyone in the world to write a book. Imagine the explosion of reading and books sold!

I very happily self-publish and sell my books on Amazon and it makes up a large proportion of my book sales income.

I am not anti-Amazon — but I am anti-exclusivity. I do not check the KU box. Here’s why.

Independence

I’m an independent author by choice. Self-publishing was never the second choice for me. I’m a creative entrepreneur and running my own publishing company makes great business sense. I’m an empowered creative in charge of my own writing career.

The definition of independence includes “free from outside control; not subject to another’s authority; not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.”

If all you have are ebooks in KU, you are not independent because you are not in control, you are subject to another’s authority, and you depend on Amazon for your livelihood.

Some authors have done very well in KU, and some continue to make fantastic revenue from it. But others have seen their income decimated when the rules around KU page reads or categories changed.

You have no control over how much you’re paid, and Amazon can change the rules at any time. They have done this several times already, and they will continue to do so, because it’s their business and they can do what they like. There’s no warning. It just happens. So there’s a level of anxiety within the KU author community about possible changes and people monitor Facebook groups and forums all the time. There is no peace of mind.

I have a personal example of this loss of control that shapes my own need for independence. In early 2008, I was laid off along with four hundred other people in one day from my corporate IT department in Australia. My one source of income disappeared overnight. Few people saw the Global Financial Crisis coming, and we all had to adapt.

Change is inevitable, so I choose to spread my bets amongst the retailers as well as selling directly from my own site. In an interview with Charlie Rose in 2013, Jeff Bezos said that at some point, Amazon itself would be disrupted. He just hopes it happens after he’s dead! [Publishing Perspectives]

As I write this in April 2019, Amazon has just pulled out of China, closing its marketplace due to competition from Alibaba [CNN] Clearly, it is not a foregone conclusion that Amazon will win the online marketplace war in every market.

I think about the future of publishing a great deal. I’m in my mid-forties, and I’m not just building for the next year, I’m building for the rest of my life and hopefully leaving something for my family when I’m gone. As Amazon continues to rise and rise, we see the push back of many different industries against their domination. There are calls for big tech to be broken up and increased regulation for online retail, so who knows what the next five years will hold? [Medium: Elizabeth Warren article on Here’s how we break up Big Tech].

I’m committed to a future that is not controlled by a single retailer.

I believe that every author’s individual choice plays a part in that future, and together, we can make a difference. That’s why I am part of the Alliance of Independent Authors because we are stronger together.

Of course, most authors have a job or other forms of income, so Amazon is not their only source. I just wanted to explain my own background and decisions as a full-time author-entrepreneur. In my household, this business is our only income, but at this point, The Creative Penn Limited is truly diverse and only around 11% of my total business revenue comes from Amazon.

Missing out on global growth of digital markets

My Kobo Writing Life sales map

I went to school in Malawi, Africa; I’ve worked in the Middle East and all over Europe and lived in Australia and New Zealand as well as traveling around the USA and other places, so I have seen a lot of the world (for which I am truly grateful!).

You can hear about my travels on my other podcast and blog, Books and Travel.

My family is British-Nigerian-Hungarian-Kiwi-Jewish-Canadian-Caribbean, and that’s just amongst my siblings and their kids.

My perspective is always global and yet so much of the independent author movement is US-centric.

Fair enough, it started there, but the world is changing and the adoption of digital technologies and mobile-first economies will change the way the world works by 2025.

Amazon may be the biggest player in the developed digital markets like US, UK, Canada, and Australia, but there are other retail stores and devices that dominate in other countries, plus there are exciting possibilities for where the digital world is heading.

If you stay with Amazon exclusively for e-books you’re missing out on selling your books on other retail stores like Kobo, Apple Books, or on Google Play. The latter is particularly interesting because there are 1 billion Google devices around the world now [CNET] with growth in developing markets that use cheaper Android phones. Many new markets are mobile first.

If you publish wide, your books can be for sale in 190 countries and across apps that you have never even heard of through distributors like Draft2Digital, PublishDrive, Streetlib, and Smashwords. Sure, availability does not guarantee sales, but I’ve now sold ebooks in 86 countries, which would not be possible if I was in KU.

To stay up to date with global publishing news, check out The New Publishing Standard.

Scammers, quality issues and the perception of KU and self-publishing

There are absolutely lots of great authors with fantastic books behaving ethically in KU, but there are also a lot of scammers, as reported by David Gaughran on multiple occasions and in a recent article: Kindle Unlimited: A Cheater Magnet.

Book-stuffing to expand page reads, charts flooded with ghostwritten books, and more recently, the plagiarism of #copypastecris, which Nora Roberts is trying to tackle by suing the author involved. This bad behavior continues to proliferate because the KU model encourages it.

These scandals take us back to the old days of indie when we had to defend the quality of self-published work. Again, there are great books in KU — but there’s also a lot of crap generated by people trying to scam pages read and get All-Star bonuses.

From a reader perspective, KU and the rise of Amazon ads have made it harder and harder to find books I want to read on the store. I’m not the only one finding the categories I love stuffed full of books with no relation to the genre I want to read. I used to browse categories as a reader every week but now I’ve started to find books through physical bookstores again as well as social media and bookseller email lists. I’ve also been browsing on curated stores like Apple Books to find my next read. I can’t be the only one.

Long term thinking

I understand why so many authors choose to stay exclusive with Amazon. It’s easier to manage, easier to report and for some authors, it’s a lot more profitable. But it’s also short-term thinking, focused on sales today or this month.

If you only use KU, you’re building a business on a platform that changes the rules regularly, allows scammers to reap rewards, and prevents your books from reaching libraries, readers in other countries who can’t access Amazon, and those who ethically object to Amazon business practices.

Publishing wide is an attitude, not just a technical choice.

It’s deciding that you want your book to be available to every reader in every format. It’s publishing for the long-term, not for daily sales rank.

When you have a long-term business model, every asset you put in the world helps sell the other assets. I’m not so concerned with e-book sales in launch week, I’m concerned with the long-tail income for the rest of my life.

I love creating so that’s how I spend my time. I measure my life by what I create. I focus on creating books, getting them out in every format I can, in every country I can, on every device I can, and then, I know that these sales come, but they take time.

Wide distribution is a long term mindset.

It’s about building an author business for many years to come with a stable base across multiple stores in multiple countries and multiple formats.

It takes time to grow your audience at other stores and having multiple books in a series as well as boxsets can be the best way to gain reader loyalty and sales for the long term.

The more books you have, the more you can play with different options. When you have multiple books, you can adopt multiple strategies. So writing more books in different series for different readers is the ideal situation and then you can have some in Select and some wide. The best of both worlds! Some authors release a whole series in KU and then make it wide all at once along with a boxset edition.

Remember, KDP Select is for ebooks only, so even if you choose to go exclusive with Amazon for your ebook, you can still go ‘wide’ with your print book and audiobook.

This way, you can still reach libraries and bookstores with your words rather than being locked inside the Amazon eco-system. After all, we are independent authors, aren’t we?!

How to go wide with ebooks

If you are in KU currently, the first thing to do is uncheck the auto-enroll button and note the date that your books come out of KU. You can’t publish anywhere else until then.

You will need an ePub version of your book to publish on the other stores, whereas Kindle requires a mobi. There are lots of free formatting options now, although I choose to use Vellum because then I can control and test the output. [Here’s my tutorial for Vellum.]

Once you have your files, you can publish wide. There are hundreds of sites that sell ebooks across the world right now and there is no way to individually publish to them all. Plus, you want to spend your time writing, not updating multiple publishing sites.

Luckily for us, there are aggregators who will publish your books to multiple vendors while taking a small percentage of sales in return.

I publish direct to Amazon KDP and Kobo Writing Life because I want to retain control of my pricing and my biggest income sources as well as take advantage of their promotions which are only available for direct publishers.

I also use aggregator services: Draft2Digital for Nook and other sites; PublishDrive for Google Play and other European and Chinese sites; and I’m just starting to get my books on StreetLib as well for their focus on Africa, Asia and Latin America. You can also use Smashwords, which has a store where readers can buy direct as well as an aggregator service. I’m now using Payhip to sell direct to readers — see my store here where you can buy my books direct anywhere in the world.

I’ve been independently publishing for over a decade now, so I’ve added new services as they’ve emerged in order to reach more markets.

I am totally committed to wide distribution and having my books available everywhere, but I’ll admit that it takes time to manage updates on all my books on all these different platforms every time I want to make a change.

If you’re just starting out, then you can choose one aggregator to use for all stores, or you can consolidate over time so you have fewer sites to maintain. You have to decide what works best for your book and your own publishing process over time.

It takes time to build an audience if you put your books wide.

You can’t expect to load your books up to a new retailer and expect them to sell straight away. You need time in that market and promotions over time. Moving your books in and out of Select will stop you from building readership on the other platforms. I’ve seen the compound effect of slow growth on my blog, my online platform and my book sales over the years, but you need patience and a long-term plan. More on marketing wide below.

Go wide with print

There is no KU for print, no exclusivity for paperbacks, but if you’re Amazon-only for print, you’re not going to get your book into physical bookstores, you’re not going to get into libraries, you’re not going to get into schools or anywhere else that requires a discount on your print book, or anywhere that has an issue with Amazon — as most physical retail stores do because of the impact Amazon has on their business model.

Think about how a bookstore makes money. They buy books at a discount e.g. half of the list price, then they sell it for a profit. They cannot buy your books on Amazon and they generally don’t want to anyway. They can’t make any money that way. The same applies to libraries and schools, literary festivals and other forms of print retail.

I use KDP Print for books sold on Amazon and I also use IngramSpark for wide-print distribution. They distribute books to 39,000 retailers including bookstores, libraries, schools, and universities. They have a Global Connect program and printers in different global locations as well as ensuring your book is in the catalogs that book buyers order from.

You can do various print formats with IngramSpark including print-on-demand hardbacks, which I love. I’m currently getting my backlist into hardback because some readers love them, they last longer and so may end up in more libraries, secondhand shops and as gifts. Plus, it makes my author brand super professional to have ebook, paperback, hardback, large print, and audiobook editions. Very few traditionally published authors have so many editions of their books and with print-on-demand, it’s not expensive.

My large print sales are also growing. You can do them on KDP Print as well, but you won’t get sales through libraries which are one of the bigger markets for large print. [Here’s my tutorial on Large Print.]

Vellum have just released an update for large-print and also mass-market paperback, which is very popular in the U.S.

Since expanding my print distribution with Ingram Spark, my print revenue has doubled from 10% to 21% of my book sales income.

My books have also appeared on physical bookstore shelves as well as next to big-name authors at literary festivals because those retailers can order direct from the catalogs and get a discount.

I’ve also ordered boxes shipped directly to places I’m speaking, and you can get great discounts on bulk printing, even though most of us do print-on-demand as the default option. In episode 377 of the podcast, David Hendrickson explains how he does bulk sales into schools through Ingram Spark.

If you want to get your book into bookstores, check out How to Get Your Self-Published Book into Bookstores by the Alliance of Independent Authors. Plus, check out the interview on getting your books into bookstores and libraries with Debbie Young here.

How to go wide with print

You will need your own ISBNs to publish through IngramSpark, so purchase those first. You may decide to use an imprint name as I do with Curl Up Press. This doesn’t have to be a legal company, it can just be a name you want to use, just make sure no one else is using it. ISBNs are free in some countries, like Canada, but you have to purchase them in other countries like US or UK. [More detail on ISBNs here.]

The print-ready files are slightly different between KDP Print and Ingram Spark, so you might consider working with a designer who knows both stores, or you can download templates.

My books for sale at a literary festival

When you publish your paperback through KDP Print, do not select the extended distribution option. If you have already published there, just go in and de-select it later. [More tips on how to publish KDP Print alongside Ingram Spark here.]

Sign up to IngramSpark. There are some setup costs, but you can get discount codes if you’re a member of the Alliance of Independent Authors and they also do promotions around NaNoWriMo and other times.

IngramSpark have lots of help videos and also a podcast, Go Publish Yourself, if you want to learn more about them. The lovely Robin Cutler speaks at a lot of conferences as well and they are always at book fairs and expos, so go along and talk about your situation.

The metadata is similar to KDP Print in that you will need your description and you choose BISAC categories, but you also get to choose Thema codes which are more descriptive. Find the most appropriate for your books.

You will need to choose a discount percentage. Some authors say that you should select the deepest discount possible as that makes it more likely that stores will buy from you. Personally, I choose the lowest discount, usually 35%, which still means they can make money, but so do I. After all, I’m a business too and it’s about the profit, baby! I also select Non-returnable because returns can mean you end up out of pocket.

My book in Blackwells Edinburgh!

You can order a proof copy and make any changes and approve for distribution. There are some promotional opportunities on IngramSpark, but I haven’t used them so can’t comment on their effectiveness. There are minor charges for publication and distribution but again, check for discount codes.

Thanks to Alice Rosewell who sent me her thoughts on going wide with print. She notes that you need to set aside some time to get everything ready and you have to remember why you want to do this as there may be some technical frustrations along the way. I second that and it’s true for the indie author life in general, you have to know why you’re doing this as there will always be frustrations.

Go wide with audio

Audiobooks are the fastest growing segment of the publishing market and more opportunities arise every month for authors who want to get their books into audio format. Forbes reported in April 2019 that 50% of Americans have listened to an audiobook – 74% listen while driving and 68% listen at home. 55% of audiobook listeners have also listened to a podcast in the last month. [Forbes]

Streaming audio in smartphone apps means that it’s easier than ever to buy and consume audiobooks and podcasts. Google Auto, Apple Carplay and Amazon Alexa make streaming audio in cars easier than ever, boosting commuter listening. The Amazon Echo, Google Home, and other smart speakers have brought audio into the home and families are listening to more audio to avoid screentime.

Whispersync technology means that you can be reading on your phone or device at breakfast, then get in your car and continue listening where you stopped reading, and when you get home, cook dinner while listening again, all without losing your place. Amazon also bundles audiobooks with ebooks, and if a customer owns an ebook version, the audiobook is cheaper.

Listeners can get great value audio subscriptions with Audible, Kobo Audio, Scribd, Storytel and other services, plus library users can borrow audiobooks through local providers.

Most traditionally published authors have licensed their audiobook rights and many of those will never be turned into audio, so indies have the advantage of a faster response to this growing market.

The number of audiobooks available right now is considerably smaller than print or ebooks, so you have more of a chance of standing out.

What is exclusivity for audio?

Exclusivity for audio means publishing through ACX and choosing the exclusive contract option, which means your audiobooks will only be available on Amazon, Audible, and iTunes. It’s a 7-year contract and you get 40% royalty, which you can split with a narrator if you do a royalty share deal. If you are non-exclusive on ACX, your royalty rate is 25%.

Royalty share deals are only available on ACX if you go exclusive and you also get the benefit of promotional codes that you can give away, so it’s easier to market your book.

ACX is only available for authors in US, UK, Canada, and Ireland currently so if you are not in those countries, you will need to use another service.

If you are in those countries, you can still choose the non-exclusive contract if you pay a narrator outright for your audio production, or if you do it privately and then upload later.

Going wide and other options for audio

You can license your audiobook to a professional company e.g. Podium Publishing picked up Andy Weir’s The Martian and won several Audie Awards for it.

You can license your audio rights separately to your other rights, so if you are traditionally published, check whether you still have your audio rights and in which territories as you may be able to get it into other markets yourself.

If you have licensed the rights but the publisher has not produced an audiobook, try to get those rights back.

If you want to manage audio rights yourself and reach all the various audiobook platforms, then you can use FindawayVoices.com, which is open to authors in all countries. There are other services but I personally use Findaway and they are fantastic for indies. If you already publish through Draft2Digital, you can use their link and get the initial setup fee waived.

In terms of royalties, there are different amounts for different retailers but you can get up to 85% using AuthorsDirect through Findaway, as well as retail sales, and pay per checkout model at libraries which means micro-payments for continual borrowing. I love this model and have already started to see this come in for some of my books. It’s free for the listener through the library eco-system and you keep getting paid over time, so it’s a win-win.

[Listen to my interview with Will Dages from Findaway about all things audio here.]

Findaway has a new service, Voices Share, where you can do royalty split deals with narrators. They also have monthly promotions you can submit your books to.

Why go wide with audio

If you’re not wide for audio, you’re missing out on growing global markets and companies which are expanding at an incredible rate. Storytel, Scribd, Kobo Audio and more, with new services emerging all the time. It’s really just getting started. [Publishers Weekly]

Storytel, in particular, are aggressively going after markets where Audible doesn’t yet dominate and it’s looking likely that some markets may have more digital penetration with audio than with ebooks.

You also miss out on library audio distribution if you’re exclusive on ACX, and you can’t sell direct or use a promotional service like Chirp from BookBub, which will be transforming audiobook promotion. It’s only available in the US right now, but again, will hopefully be expanding over time.

Some authors who are exclusive with ebooks are choosing to go wide with audio. One significant example is Michael Anderle, who founded the 20BooksTo50K group and whose ebook model is KU only. In an interview on the Self-Publishing Show, he talked about going wide for audio with Findaway and also mentioned Podium Publishing, “LMBPN [Michael’s publishing company] is going wide on audio. We are not going exclusive. We have found other reasons and justifications for doing it and we are breaking the audible exclusivity.”

If you have signed an exclusive contract with ACX, but you are not doing a royalty split deal, you can move it to a non-exclusive contract after 1 year. I’ve been moving my books out of exclusivity this way when they reach the one year mark. Just email ACX and request it.

Selling audiobooks direct

You can buy audiobooks direct from authors with the Authors Direct app

FindawayVoices has introduced AuthorsDirect, which is an audiobook player app with all the functions of Audible. As of April 2019, it’s only available in US, Canada, and Australia, but hopefully, they will expand that over time.

You can buy some of my audiobooks on AuthorsDirect here for Joanna Penn and here for J.F.Penn. Not all my books are available there as I still have some books in ACX exclusivity.

You can also sell digital MP3 files through sites like PayHip.com but the listener will need to download the files and upload them to their device, which means there is more likely to be technical help needed.

Book marketing when publishing wide

I’m puzzled when authors say they don’t know how to market ‘wide’ books because 99% of book marketing options are ‘wide’ by definition, but only if your books are available everywhere.

Anything on the internet is (mostly) accessible across the world. This website has traffic from over 200 countries and The Creative Penn Podcast has been downloaded in 215 countries. If anyone in those countries wants to buy one of my books on their favorite platform in their favorite format, they should be able to do it, or they can buy direct from my Payhip store.

So blogging, podcasting, guest posting, social media, and any other form of internet marketing can generate ‘wide’ sales.

You can also do book-specific paid ads for ‘wide’ books. I use Amazon Ads for my books on Amazon, because you don’t have to be in KU to use Amazon ads. I use BookBub ads which promote to wide platforms and multiple countries, Facebook ads for different countries and platforms, as well as newsletter services like FreeBooksy and BargainBooksy which promote to wide platforms. BookBub are so keen on wide publishing for audio, they have even introduced Chirp which will have direct audio sales that you can access through Findaway Voices.

It’s easier to look at it another way. The only marketing you can do only if you’re Amazon exclusive is KDP free days and countdown deals for ebooks, and use free giveaway codes on Audible for ACX.

So if you want to go wide, start by adding the other store buttons to your website so people can find your book. You can also use Books2Read.com for ebook links. At some point, I hope Aer.io from IngramSpark will make it easier to sell print-on-demand direct from our websites, as well.

Then promote your books by using the wide links instead of your Amazon specific links. I prefer to use pages on my own website www.TheCreativePenn.com/books because driving traffic to my site also results in email signups and other benefits than just book sales.

There are store-specific promotional opportunities which you can sign up for when you join platforms. Kobo Writing Life has a great promo tab which you can request to join if you publish direct. Also, check out this interview on selling more books on Kobo with Camille Mofidi, and Mark Leslie Lefebvre’s book, Killing it on Kobo, which has more tips.

PublishDrive have Amazon advertising options and curate promotions across multiple sites. Findaway Voices also have monthly audiobook promotions you can apply for. Draft2Digital have a great blog with lots of tips on book marketing across the wide platforms.

The number of ways to market your wide books is pretty much unlimited, but as always, you need to know your target market and where to find them. Once you know that, you can point them towards your wide store links. For more marketing ideas, check out How to Market a Book, available in all the usual formats on all platforms

OK, I’m done! I hope you found this article a useful round-up of the current state of publishing wide. You get to choose your path through the author journey, so I’d love to know your thoughts. Please leave any questions or your own experience in the comments. Happy publishing!

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Writing a non-fiction book can be as challenging as writing fiction, but in different ways. How do you organize all you know in a way that will assist your readers? Esbe van Heerden shares some great tips about a quick method to create a comprehensive and easy-to-use outline.

If you’re in the early stages of planning out your book, you probably have a really good idea of what you want your book to be about, but when you sit down to write it you feel totally overwhelmed.

You know that all the information on your topic is in your head, but you have no idea where to start or how to put it all down into a logical order.

But what you can already do, is summarize what you’d like your book to be about — what you’d like it to teach others, what you want your readers to get out of it.

Based on this summary, you can reverse engineer exactly what specific information to include in your book so that your readers reach the destination you’d like them to reach by the time they’ve finished reading your book.

That’s why we call this system of outlining your book the Reverse Summary Technique.

This technique can also be used to create the outline to your audiobook, keynote speech and even a course!

I’m going to show you how to create an outline that will be the backbone of your entire book as you go through the writing and editing process — in 2 days.

How You Can Use The Reverse Summary Technique

After using the Reverse Summary Technique, you can easily make:

• Your sales copy for the blurb on the back of your book and your Amazon sales page
• A complete working Table of Contents
• A list of all the points you want to make in each chapter, including back up statements and arguments, and which stories you want to place throughout your book
• A catalog of materials you want to reference as downloads to gain email opt-ins
• A guide for exactly what to write as you move into the writing process, and for how to organize your finished book during the editing phase

Lay a solid foundation using the Reverse Summary Technique that will support you, and will make what could be the very difficult steps of writing and editing much easier

The 5 Steps to Using the “Reverse Summary Technique” to Build the Backbone of Your Book

There are 5 steps to the Reverse Summary Technique:
Step 1: Summarize your book
Step 2: Breakdown your summary into a Table of Contents
Step 3: Summarize each chapter
Step 4: Break down each summary into supporting points
Step 5: Write out questions that will help prompt you

Step 1: Summarize your book

There are a number of ways you can pull out your book’s summary — below are some prompts to help you really think about what you want your book to achieve in your reader’s lives. Answer any of the following that resonate with you, there is no need to answer all of them as you will find the answers repetitive!

What will your book be about?

• What is your expertise in?
• Why are you qualified to talk about this topic?
• What are you hoping the reader will get out of your book by the end of it?
• Why would a reader want to pick up your book?
• What journey will your reader go on?

What are the main ideas and take away points you foresee in your book?

• Are you trying to convince your readers of a certain view?
• Are you opening up your reader’s mind to something?
• Do you want them to know exactly what action steps to take next?
• What will your audience specifically get by reading your book?
• Describe how you want your audience to feel at the end of your book, what do you want them to get out of it?
• How would you want someone, who has read your book, to summarize it to their friends in only a sentence or two?
• If someone had your book, and a friend asked them what your book was about, how would you want the person to answer? eg. “Jane’s book is about…”

Use all of your answers above to get your main ideas for your book. Aim for 3 or 4 main take away points, themes or ideas here.

You may come up with something like this:

My book’s four main takeaways should be:
1. My methodology, what it is and what it means to families.
2. Skills and tools to apply immediately in order to contribute to their loved ones and their own recovery.
3. Understand the family’s role in a loved one’s recovery and what it takes to contribute to recovery.
4. How my philosophy and method brings love alive in their own and their family’s lives and empowers the growth of recovery.

Step 2: Breakdown your summary into a Table of Contents

Now that you have your book summary, take the three main points/takeaways that you came up with, and explain each point in 3 or 4 sentences.

From each of these sentences, there should be a main idea — use these ideas as chapter headings!

For example, you may explain the first point above as follows:

The main takeaway: My methodology, what it is and what it means to families.

The summary: My Methodology is not tough, conditional, or complicated. It is not enabling or steeped in denial. My Methodology is peaceful, clear, based on facts, aware of reality, and willing to quietly risk all for a better tomorrow, while staying grounded in today. This is the most powerful path to walk with a struggling loved one and the most promising. This is My Philosophy.

Take each sentence you used to summarize the takeaway, and pinpoint the main idea — the bolded terms above show the main points, and can be used to make chapter titles, for example:

1. My Methodology — What Does it Mean?
2. The Power of Today to Create a Better Tomorrow
3. The Promise of the Path
4. My Philosophy

If you’d repeated this process for each takeaway point, already, you would have progressed so far from just an idea of the transformation you want your readers to go through, to an established Table of Contents. But we aren’t stopping there!

Step 3: Summarize each chapter

In order to get even more granular, create your supporting arguments by summarizing each chapter. Just as you wrote down a summary of your book in the last step, now do the same for each chapter.

As an example, taking the first chapter from step two:
Chapter 1: My methodology — what does it mean?

Summary: My Methodology is all about walking the loving path from chaos to sanity, it gets you from overwhelmed, worried you’re going to lose your loved one, to a place of control. It’s about selfless love, truly selfless, which is so scary. I want to show you how to take that risk of loving someone selflessly. I want to show you how to use the calendar so that you can continue to be present in order to stay on this path.

Move on to step 4 to see how to use this summary to get your chapter’s supporting arguments.

Step 4: Break down each summary into supporting points

Once you’ve summarized each chapter, find the key arguments and turn them into your main supporting points. In the summary above, these have been bolded.

Turn the key arguments into subheadings, for example, from the summary in Step 3:

• From Chaos to Sanity
• Selfless Love
• How to Take That Risk
• Use the Calendar

Use these subheadings to easily get into the zone — with them, you’ll never sit down for a writing session just to wonder what you should write about.

To take this one step further, add prompts in the form of questions. Read on to Step 5 to see how. This way, when you go to write each chapter, all you’ll have to do is answer each question you’ve written to get the content to flow from your head. You’ve got the information in there, and now you’ll be asking yourself the right questions.

Step 5: Write out questions that will help prompt you

For each point, what would you need to ask yourself in order to talk about that particular point? With each point you want to make, try to write questions that will not only answer what that main point is, but also why that point is important to the reader.

For example, for each point you may ask yourself:

Why does the reader need to know that?

What happens if the reader doesn’t know that, if they tried to do XYZ without that information.

With this question, the answer you’re aiming for will paint how bad it is when the reader doesn’t take your advice, and then paint how good it can be when they do take your advice.

For example, taking Chapter 1 and a couple of its subheadings from the steps above, it might look something like this:

My Methodology — What Does It Mean?

From Chaos to Sanity

• What is My Methodology?
• What does it mean to be in chaos? What does that look like for the reader? What does sanity look like?
• How does My Methodology get the reader from chaos to sanity?
• Why is it important to have a path that gets you from chaos to sanity?
• Is there a story I can think about, either in my life or the life of someone I know, that exemplifies what chaos looks like, and how this path helped move someone from there to sanity?

Selfless Love

• What does it mean to selflessly love? What does that look like?
• What does selfish love look like?
• What are some examples of both?
• Why is it important for the reader to learn what selfless love is, how can it help them on their journey to family recovery?

This entire process will probably take you a few hours, but I recommend coming back to it again in day 2, just in case something comes to you overnight!

Writing questions like will make life so much easier when you come to writing your content. Just by answering the questions you come up with in step 5 in a few paragraphs, suddenly you may have a 50,000-word manuscript, filled with all the important information.

And just as importantly, because it was planned so well from the start, your first draft will also be filled with only the important information.

Planning your book’s outline using the Reverse Summary technique, will allow you to be as efficient as possible in the writing phase, which will make editing a breeze!

It ensures that you don’t repeat information, and don’t have to spend a long time cutting your manuscript back down after you’ve waffled on about things that just don’t matter to your book’s main thesis.

Most importantly, you will never sit down behind your keyboard and draw a blank. You’ve always got your cues waiting for you so that the information will flow through your fingers and onto the page.

[Note from Joanna: You can find lots more help on how to write non-fiction here. ]

Do you outline before you write non-fiction books or articles?

Please leave your thoughts below and join the conversation.

Esbe van Heerden heads up Author Success over at NonFiction Audiobook, where she’s in this to make a difference, to help you create an audiobook you truly love — one that is one-of-a-kind, unique and brilliantly made by you.

Whether you want your message to reach the masses, whether you’re starting or growing your business, or whether you just want to charge more so you can work less, Esbe is here to help you reach the highest levels of your creative potential and tap into the deepest wisdom within you while she takes care of the complicated processes.

Esbe is an unshakable yeasayer dedicated to helping you make your best audiobook — so that it’s sound and sophistication honors your story within. To find out more about making your audiobook, visit NonfictionAudiobook.com

Creatives can suffer from burn-out just as easily as those in any other line of work. Psychologist and author Ellen Bard shares her ideas about what self-care is, why it matters for writers, and how to deal with the obstacles we often face when we think about taking care of ourselves.

How often are you your ‘best self’?

How often are you relaxed, buzzing with creativity, in flow, words of brilliance pouring out of you?

How often are you enthusiastic, energized, and ready to take on the world?

The world moves at a much faster pace than the environment for which humans evolved, and the amount of information and stimuli in our day-to-day keeps on increasing.

In order to juggle the kind of life most indie writers have to – where being creative needs to be balanced with marketing, social media, family, friends, hobbies and perhaps even a full-time or part-time job – we need to invest in regular self-care.

What is self-care?

Self-care itself as a term is somewhat of a buzzword at the moment, but essentially just means taking accountability for your own emotional, mental and physical health.

When we don’t keep up our self-care we can burn out by running on empty for too long, and eventually make ourselves ill. And even if things aren’t as bad as this, by not paying attention to our self-care we can live a diminished life, where a fog of tiredness or exhaustion lies over our activities.

Or we might end up with a life with a level of internal discomfort that tells us something is wrong, without us really understanding how to fix it.

From London to Bangkok

My own journey into writing was sparked by the need for a break from my management consulting job in London, six years ago. I’m a work psychologist and was doing 60 hour weeks every week, and fighting two chronic health conditions.

I realized it was time for a couple of months’ sabbatical. I traveled, ended up in Thailand, discovered I could create a much more flexible if unusual life – and never went back.

Now my life consists of freelance consulting in SE Asia and the Middle East (I’ve worked in twenty countries and counting!), and working as a hybrid author, writing indie fiction (paranormal romance) and non-fiction (personal development) with a publisher.

I’m based in Thailand, travel is a regular part of my life, and I even met a wonderful partner to share my atypical lifestyle with.

As part of that journey, I took accountability for my own wellbeing and explored the area of self-care. I realized I wasn’t alone, as my professional life working with clients showed me many of us live lives where we rarely stop to ask ourselves what we need.

We live on autopilot, perhaps doing similar activities each day, and don’t give ourselves time to check-in with ourselves.

[Note from Joanna: You can also listen to an interview with Ellen on Self Care and Productivity for Authors here.]

A simple but powerful question

I suggest to my clients and readers to start their self-care with a very simple question: What do you need right now?

Sometimes, we need a break. Sometimes, an apple. Sometimes, a nap. Sometimes, a hug.

But whatever the need, if we’re constantly living our lives reactively, in response to others’ demands – the email in your inboxes, the long to-do list, feeding your hungry social media – our deeper needs can go entirely unnoticed.

Get to know yourself

Many writers have rich inner lives, which is a great start for thinking about self-care. The better you know yourself, the easier it is to work out what your self-care might look like.

Because one of the challenges and blessings of the area is that there is no ‘prescribed’ self-care, it’s entirely personal to you.

Draw or print the matrix below. Consider, what people, places, physical things, and activities nourish you, in an emotional, physical and mental sense?

Here are some of mine as examples:

Already this should trigger some ideas about ways in which you could be kinder to yourself.

What are the obstacles to your self-care?

The response to the kind of activity and list above is often a litany of excuses as to why, exactly, you can’t do any of the things in the matrix right now. Money, guilt and time seem to be the three most common.

Money – Self-care doesn’t have to cost a lot. While green smoothies, the latest vitamins on the market and fancy spa days might all be nice, you’ll see many of the things in my matrix above are free or relatively cheap or are based on things I already own. Consider what you already have access to in your life that nourishes you, and add on the more costly self-care as an occasional splash-out.

Guilt – It’s common for people to tell me they couldn’t possibly take the time to spend on themselves, as they have too many things on their list for others. But if we don’t spend at least some of our time taking care of our own needs, and replenishing our energy with self-care, we will run out of energy, and be empty. We’ll be no good to ourselves – or anyone else. It’s a cliche, but we really do need to put our own oxygen mask on first before we attend to others.

Time – Start small. Don’t make self-care another ‘should’ or chore on your list. Make a list of small pleasures, and include some of these in your week, and give yourself permission to enjoy them. Help your subconscious get the message that this is part of taking care of yourself.

Creativity and self-care

I would argue that the expression of creativity is a basic human need, and part of all of us in the same way that hunger, thirst, sex, safety, and love are. Creative activities can be a great way to practice self-care.

They can be a source of relaxation, help us solve problems more effectively, improve relationships and our emotional wellbeing. Workplaces also seek creativity, as people who can do things in novel ways can often do them faster and with less effort.

And of course, for writers, nourishing our creativity is crucial to our profession.

I found The Artist’s Way, by Julia Cameron, a wonderful experience in creative self-care, in particular, her idea of the Artist’s Date.

For this, we should regularly take ourselves on a ‘date’ to fill our creative well. This means we should do an activity that will sustain our creativity, which can only flourish when we provide it with input and stimulation.

Examples might be:

Going out for an hour in your neighborhood, and taking photos of anything red you see.

Picking up and reading three magazines at random about topics on which you know nothing.

Being a tourist in your own town by doing something from the top 10 activities on Trip Advisor or similar.

Looking at a random Instagram account and making up a comic-book-style story from the last 20 photos

Your Artist’s Date doesn’t have to mean leaving the house, but it should involve spending some time alone, seeking inspiration from things that are new or different for you.

Self-care is a responsible thing to include in your day.

Self-care isn’t a panacea, and neither is it a one-off thing. Just like writing, it’s something that builds over time, that we need to invest in, where many small steps can add up to make a real difference.

But just like writing, we need to start somewhere.

Implementing some of the ideas above won’t make life perfect.

It will give you the opportunity for experiments to be kind to yourself in small and big ways, and to see what works for you – and make your life a little bit better, every day.

What’s your favorite activity for self-care? Ideas from others can often spark new ways of thinking about how we take care of ourselves! Please leave your thoughts below and join the conversation.

Ellen Bard is a work psychologist, writer and digital nomad. Her 18 years’ consulting experience helps her bring practical, useful and fun personal improvement ideas to those who are long on interest and short on time.

She’s the author of This Is For You: A Creative Toolkit for Better Self-Care, as well as several paranormal romance novels. She has been featured in a number of high profile publications – including the Huffington Post, The Guardian, BBC Radio 4 and the Financial Times – as a thought leader in productivity, and the challenges of work-life balance in the modern fast-paced, technology-enabled world. She is based in Thailand with her partner.

[Legs on table image courtesy Ales Me and Unsplash. Thailand image courtesy Mathew Schwartz and Unsplash.]

Many authors dream of seeing their book turned into a film or TV show, but what are the realities of pitching and even getting optioned? In today’s show, DJ Williams shares his experience and tips.

In the intro, I share my writing update and why I am still learning more about podcasting after 10 years.

Need help with the business side of writing? Check out the limited time special: www.StoryBundle.com/writing

Plus, join me and Joseph Michael, the Scrivener Coach, for a free webinar on How to Use Scrivener to Accelerate your Writing. Thurs 2 May at 3pm US Eastern / 8pm UK, or register for the replay. Click here to register for your free place.

Today’s show is sponsored by PublishDrive, a global self-publishing platform distributing to 400+ stores and 240,000 libraries, with innovative marketing tools like integrated Amazon Ads. The writing process is hard enough, so the publishing and marketing process should be easier. PublishDrive helps authors write more, publish more, sell more and worry less. Go to www.PublishDrive.com to learn more.

DJ Williams is a TV executive director and producer with more than 400 episodes of broadcast TV syndicated worldwide. He’s also the author of three novels, including The Auctioneer described as ‘Bourne meets Bond meets National Treasure’.

You can listen above or on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or watch the video here, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• On the shift from directing for TV to writing novels

• Finding an agent who specializes in your genre

• Pitching to a streaming service like Netflix or Amazon Prime

• Once again, the importance of intellectual property rights

• Podcast episode with John Grisham and Harlan Coben that Derek refers to. Also check out the book, Hollywood vs the Author for Michael Connelly’s story and more.

• Creating the different treatments and summaries to use when pitching

• Our thoughts on Taleflick.com – you can get $8 off if you use my link: www.TheCreativePenn.com/taleflick

• On what authors can bring to their pitches that will keep them involved with the production

• Compressing your idea down to the short ‘logline’ to use during pitching

• Hollywood’s search for stories that are unique and producable

• Tips on how to find production companies

You can find DJ Williams at djwilliams.com and on Twitter @djwilliams316

Transcript of Interview with DJ Wiliams

Joanna: Hi, everyone. I’m Joanna Penn from TheCreativePenn.com. And today, I’m here with D.J. Williams. Welcome, Derek.

Derek: Hi, Joanna, how are you? Good to be here.

Joanna: It’s great to have you on the show. Just a little introduction.

Derek is a TV executive director and producer with more than 400 episodes of broadcast TV syndicated worldwide. He’s also the author of three novels, including ‘The Auctioneer’ described as ‘Bourne meets Bond meets National Treasure,’ which is right down my alley in the action-adventure space.

Derek, start by telling us a bit more about you and your career in writing and TV and film.

Derek: Sure, after that introduction, I feel like I need a vacation. I feel like I’ve been working way too hard.

I was born and raised in Hong Kong, so I’m an expat to some degree. Moved back to LA when I was 15, ended up getting into the music business for a long time, producing records. I owned a couple indie labels. And then when iTunes came along, all of us had to revamp our career. And I got a phone call from a friend who said that they were shooting a pilot for a new show.

And he said, ‘I want you to come out and direct the pilot.’ And I said, ‘Well, I’ve never directed TV before’. And he said, ‘Well, how hard can it be? Just show up, act like you know what you’re doing.’

So, I flew out to Indiana, and we shot the pilot, and the pilot took off. And I think we’re in season 16 of that particular show. And it’s just one of those things I said yes and took a risk, and it’s been 12 years. I’ve been working in the TV world and very grateful to always have work because that’s one of the challenges.

Joanna: It’s really interesting because a lot of people romanticize the TV and film industry. People would be like, ‘Well, why would you write novels then? Why would you do that?’

Why get into writing novels? What does that give you that’s different?

Derek: When I was in the music business, everything from producing records to promoting and marketing the records or artists, I always saw myself as a storyteller. And music was the outlet at that point.

Now, on the TV side, we do a lot of unscripted shows, but you’re still storytelling. If someone’s being interviewed, you’re still trying to tell their story.

But there was a point in my life where I was at a crossroads in my career, and I found myself on the Zambezi River in a tent for three days with wild animals all around me. I’m a total city boy, so that was quite an adventure.

One morning I got up, I was looking out on the river, and I’ll back up just a little bit. We were shooting a documentary over there, so we had been there for three weeks filming, had seen all kinds of amazing things and met all kinds of amazing people. And that morning on the Zambezi, I looked out on the river, and I thought, ‘One day I’m going to write about this place.’

I didn’t know what that would look like. But I came home, and it’s kind of how it is. You leave one of those adventures and you come home and life’s back to the grind, and you’re working, you’re doing a lot. I put it on the shelf for a while, and then I picked it up probably about three or four years later, and I thought, ‘I’m going to write a novel, but I’m not going to tell anybody.’

I wrote the whole thing, didn’t even tell my wife I was writing. She had no idea what I was doing.

And when it was done, I sent it out to a friend of mine, her name is Judith McCreary, and Judith was a co-executive producer on ‘Law and Order: SVU’ ‘Criminal Minds’ and ‘CSI.’ And I said, ‘Judith, if this is really bad, then the only people that will know this exists are you and me.’

She read it, and she happened to be writing a script for, I think it was ‘Lifetime’ at the time, about human trafficking. Well, the first novel I wrote had to do with human trafficking. And so she called me up a couple days later, and she said, ‘You’ve gotta get this out. You got to do it.’

So that was the push I needed to take that step forward. It’s actually a good outlet because when we’re doing the TV stuff you’re with camera crews, and a lot of guests, and we also shoot pilots that we pitch to the networks, and you can be around a lot of people.

When I’m writing the novels, that’s the exact opposite. You’re by yourself, and I kind of like that. It’s been just a good kind of one-two punch for me.

Joanna: And I’m interested because, of course, you said you were in the music scene as well.

How are you doing your publishing? Are you indie through and through, or what are you doing?

Derek: I had an agent, and we pitched the projects. The first two books I wrote were not edgy enough for a commercial house. And so with ‘The Auctioneer,’ which is the latest book that’s very commercial. It checks all the boxes for a great action-adventure story. So, we shopped that around.

The one thing I’ve learned is if you’re looking for a literary agent, because I have a TV agent, and it works for what we do. But with a literary agent, you need to find someone that specializes in the genre that you’re writing in. And so I had an agent that specialized in a different kind of genre, so that was very difficult because they didn’t necessarily have the relationships with the publishing houses.

We went through this for about a year, them not being able to really get it in front of the right people. And going back to my background, like you’re saying, I’m kind of an entrepreneurial guy. And so I thought, ‘I’m not gonna wait any longer, so we’re just going to get it out on our own.’

Part of that is learning the Amazon ads. With the first book, which is kind of funny, the first book, we built our own database of every customer relations manager at every Barnes and Noble store. And we started blasting out emails to everybody to the point where the corporate buyer out of New York called me up and said, ‘Okay, what’s it going to take for you not to email our guys all the time?’

Joanna: That’s brilliant.

Derek: I said, ‘We just want to do a book tour.’ So we ended up doing a 15-city-book tour as an indie with Barnes and Noble. And that went really well. I learned a lot, between actually doing the traditional bookstore touring versus really dialing into the online platform.

It’s been a learning process. But long story short, I feel like I’m kind of an indie. If a publisher comes along, or the right agent comes along, then we’ll figure it out. But so far, it’s working for us.

Joanna: I think that’s really interesting, and the waiting time is the big deal when you’re used to just getting stuff done, which I think is the big frustration.

Let’s circle back to the TV and film because I know people listening want to know about pitching and about the type of books that even get optioned. ‘The Auctioneer’ is out at the moment with production companies, and you mentioned the lady there who said, ‘Yeah, this is a great kind of fit.’

What are your thoughts on how an author can get optioned? And also what kind of books should people try and get optioned?

Derek: It’s because of the streaming services that are out there now. For example, we just had a meeting the other day talking about a couple of scripted shows, everything from like a film to a limited series. And so that whole conversation, none of it had to do with pitching to cable or to the traditional networks. It was all going straight to Amazon, Netflix.

When they first came out, the budgets were very low, so it was very difficult to pitch certain projects. But as we’ve seen in the last few years, because they’re winning all kinds of awards, their budgets are relatively equivalent to what you’ll find at a studio or with a cable network. So that really opens up the doors for storytellers because they’re looking for all kinds of stories.

And so a lot of it has to do with the characters, the plot, but I think it’s wide open. Whereas before they would look for a certain kind of genre, and everyone wanted that kind of a story. I think that’s completely changing right now.

I’ve seen that with ‘The Auctioneer.’ ‘The Auctioneer’ is out at a bunch of studios, a bunch of production companies. We’ve got a couple of production companies that are very interested in looking at it.

It’s a little bit like going to Vegas. You roll the dice, and if you’re lucky enough to get an option, that doesn’t mean you’re going to retire. I think that’s one of the big misconceptions is that people think, ‘Man, if I get my book option, I’m getting a six-figure check, and I’m going to just relax.’ And that’s typically not how it works.

If a book gets optioned, the option period is anywhere from 12 to 18 months. And then usually what they’ll do is they’ll write in kind of an additional 12-month period.

If the book actually gets into production, then they’ll option it for an additional 12 months, and they pay the author for both options, which is nice, but it’s not necessarily six figures unless you’re the best selling author.

That’s how we’ve kind of seen it progress. And once it’s optioned, the other thing is a few years back I had the opportunity to sit with Joel Gotler. And Joel was, or still is, an agent out here in LA. He used to represent Michael Connelly. He helped Michael get the deal put together with Amazon for ‘Bosch.’

Now, Michael, for years, when he first released the ‘Bosch’ series years ago, he had signed an option deal over to the studios. And I think that deal was for like 20 years, every book for 20 years. Not one of those books from the ‘Bosch’ series ever made into a TV series or a movie.

It wasn’t until Michael got the option back and ran with it on his own that they were able to put a deal together. But typically, within 12 to 18 months, you don’t know if anything is going to happen.

Joanna: That’s a really important point.

I was going to mention there’s a book called ‘Hollywood Vs. the Author,’ have you seen it? Michael Connelly writes in that book about getting ‘Bosch’ back, and he had to pay the studio something like $3 million or $4 million for it.

But luckily, the Amazon deal paid off, and ‘Bosch’ is doing really well. But it was interesting because, of course, he’s a very successful author, he can afford that type of money. But it’s fascinating because, as you say, having tied it up with an option doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to go into production, or that it’s going to be successful. So that’s something that is really important for authors to realize.

In fact, lots of people get optioned, but very few things get made.

Derek: The flip side of it, on the inside of Hollywood, is sometimes they’ll option a book, if it’s similar to something else that they already have in development. And so they’ll option it not to do anything with it but just to keep it off the streets. They’ll hang on to it so that it doesn’t interfere with something else they already have in production. I’ve seen that happen.

I would say if you’re going down that route, if people listening have an agent, that’s really great, a literary agent, because they’ll be able to help kind of walk you through that.

But my other advice would be if someone approaches you, Google’s a great thing. You can Google the producer, the production company, you can look at their credits, you can see if they’re really legit. And then if they are legit, and they actually make you an offer it’s definitely worth spending the money to take it to an entertainment attorney and say, ‘Okay, what am I signing? How’s it going to limit me?’

And then the other thing that you have to do, which this could be hard for us creative types, is, as an author, typically when they option the book, from that point forward, if it does get into development, or does get into production, you’re hands off, typically.

I’ve talked with a lot of authors that are like, ‘I don’t want to sign an option deal unless I’m the producer, and I’m a writer, and I’m all these things.’ And, in a perfect world, that would be great. But in reality, you have to be willing to let it go.

I listened to a really good podcast, I think it was last year sometime, with John Grisham and Harlan Coben. And they were talking about kind of the whole thing with getting books optioned and everything. And they had the best advice ever. They said, ‘Look, if you can get an option, that’s great. Walk away from it after you sign it, and get as much money as you can up front.’

Joanna: Do you remember what podcast that was? Because I know people will want to know.

Derek: I forget what it was called but when Grisham did the book tour last year, he hadn’t done a book tour in like 20 years. When he did the book tour, they recorded a podcast at every one of those stops.

Joanna: So it might be his website or something.

Derek: Definitely go to his website because it’s definitely on there. And he had, like, guest authors come in and they talked about all kinds of stuff from social media to the TV film thing and all that.

Joanna: That sounds cool. Okay, so just circling back again.

If authors want to try and pitch to film or TV, should they be trying to adapt their novel, or should they be doing something like a treatment, or should they just be doing a pitch? And what do those mean, if people don’t understand?

Derek: I would say your book is your best lead-in. Depending on the production company, depending on the producer, a lot of times they may not have time to read a 300-page book. So what we’ve done is we’ll send the book, I’ve got a 12-page treatment, that is the complete story. It gives away everything, all the surprises, all the hooks.

Sometimes the author’s always like, ‘I don’t want to give them everything.’ They need to know every detail in a summary form. And then what we’ll do is we’ll do a one-paragraph summary of the story with a tag line at the top, which is kind of our hook.

An agent will look at it differently, a producer, a director, an actor, a studio, everyone’s looking at it from a different point of view. Sometimes the one-paragraph deal is good enough to get you a meeting.

But for a producer, they want to know, ‘Okay, I like the characters. I like kind of how the story begins, how’s this thing going to flow out over 110 pages?’ Give them the 12-page treatment, or it might be less than 12, but for us, it was 12 pages. Give them that treatment and they can read that in 15 minutes and know, ‘Okay, is this something that we’re interested in?’

The other thing we’ve done with ‘The Auctioneer’ is, we’ve set this up to go the distance. So we’re not only pitching it to studios for a film, but we’re also pitching it as a TV series. Because I think the characters and the way the story unfolds, it could definitely go five seasons, which that’s the goal.

For those listening, if you’re pitching a book to television, that story’s got to go at least five seasons. 100 episodes is the magic number. Because once it goes 100 episodes, then it goes into syndication. And what that means is, now that show can get sold to other networks around the world. And that, as we call out here is, that’s the gift that keeps on giving.

Joanna: I’m interested in the treatment there. I’ve done a little bit of this kind of thing. And with a treatment for a TV series versus a film, for example.

In the TV series treatment, would you be outlining your ideas for…presumably not 100 episodes, but at least how that might continue over five series?

Most people may have only written a couple of books or even one book, so how would that treatment work?

Derek: The approach would be this, if we’re looking at TV and film. So with film, typically, as you’re writing the script, you’ll have a three-act structure to the film script. With the TV side with a pilot, for example, that’s a five-act structure. So even writing those two, it’s a completely different process.

With television, you are really condensing things down. But at the same time, you’re having to watch your story arcs because you don’t want your story arcs to happen too fast, and run out of gas before the end of a 13 or 22-episode season.

My advice would be with the pilot, I would take your book and say, ‘Okay, I want to write a pilot, so I’m going to write a TV pilot.’ That pilot’s going to be about 52 pages. It will have five acts, and the pilot is introducing the viewers to your world, the world you’re creating, setting the stakes for what’s going to happen in season one, and then it’s also kind of introducing people to the characters, but not getting too deep.

You want to get them hooked just enough. If you look at your book, that may only be the first however many chapters of your book. But in addition to that, as part of the TV side, we put together what we call a show Bible.

And so in the show Bible we’ll have character profiles, like very detailed kind of history on the characters. For season one, we’ll write episode summaries. So say it’s a 13 episode season, we’ll write a summary for each episode, just tells you, ‘Here’s basically what’s going to happen.’ What that helps a studio look at is here’s the overall story arc for season one.

And then what we’ll do is we’ll write kind of like a treatment. We’ll write a treatment for, ‘Here’s the overall arc of the entire show, and so here’s how we go to season five.’ And it’s not necessarily giving away detailed plots because you may not know what those are, but we know the main character.

In ‘The Auctioneer,’ the main character is Chase Hardeman. We know in season one, here’s where you find Chase. He’s an ex-covert operative. He comes back home to take over the family business, which is an auctioning company. Something happens in the pilot episode that throws all that into chaos.

But when we get to season five, here’s where Chase is going to be in season five. And so they want to know that it’s just not going to be a linear character the entire way through, they want to know that you’ve got the twists, the turns, the surprises, what other characters will kind of evolve in those seasons.

And a lot of times the pilot is enough to get you in the door. The other difference would be like with film, you might write a script completely by yourself until you turn it into a producer, a director, they’ll make some notes.

In television, typically writers will find themselves in a writers room. And so you’re in a room with eight other people that have completely different ideas than what you may have thought. So, that show Bible is a living, breathing document.

But as an author who’s pitching to these avenues, the one thing I’ve learned is the more that you can come to the table with, the better.

And this is where I take off the writer’s hat and put on the producer hat. Because if you can attach talent to it, if you can write a pilot script, everyone’s got to judge that for themselves, can they actually do it? If you’re coming to the table with those things…or some people come with a distribution opportunity. The more that you come with, as you pitch the project, the more you can stay in the game.

Like we said earlier, if you’re an author and you sign an option, you’re out of the mix. They’re going to take it over.

But if you can give them a reason for you to stick around… Michael Connelly has done exactly that. He’s in the writers’ room, he’s figuring out how they mesh all of his books into a season on ‘Bosch,’ and he knows the characters so well.

They want him when they’re filming because he’s got Harry Bosch in his brain, and so that makes him valuable. And so I think those are things for writers to think about is, if I do write a pilot, or I have a book that I’m trying to option, what else can I bring to the table that will keep me in the room.

Joanna: If you want to go in the room.

Derek: Yeah, totally.

Joanna: Something for people to think about, as you say.

Let’s assume, because I really got into this and part of me still really wants to write scripts, and I just loved the drafts that I’ve done, but it’s a whole new way of writing, and a whole new relationship thing, and a whole new networking thing.

Let’s say there are a lot of services out there that will pitch supposedly for you. Over the years I’ve seen a lot of these come and go, and some are good, some are bad, some seem a rip-off, some seem excellent.

There’s a new one that, as we speak, has just come on my radar, which is called taleflick.com. And you and I just had a quick word beforehand, and I’ve submitted to it. It looks pretty awesome at a reasonable price.

I wondered what do you think of TaleFlick, and any thoughts on submission sites like that?

Derek: Sure. I would say, just out of the gate, there’s three things that come to mind.

The first thing is pitching traditionally, you used to have to go through one of the big agents, CAA, William Morris. Getting in with those guys is nearly impossible unless you have a track record. Fortunately, for me, over the years, I’ve met different people.

One amazing story, not that I would say everyone should go out and do this, but for ‘The Auctioneer,’ we went on LinkedIn, on my LinkedIn account, and we emailed a select group of producers, studio guys, to invite them to the release event.

Out of that, I had two production companies reach out to me to read ‘The Auctioneer.’ And they are some of the ones that are in the mix. So you never know where it might come from.

And if you reach out, in not like an overbearing way, people are pretty open. You don’t want to send five emails in the first week going, ‘Can you get back to me?’ You put it out there, you see how they react.

But with that said, one suggestion for authors is, if you find a literary agent that has experience in the TV film side, that’s a bonus.

I also did taleflick.com because I wanted to test them out and see kind of how the process worked. And up until now, I think the biggest piece that was missing was you upload your book, you upload all the information, but then you have no feedback.

You don’t know if you’re getting hits on your page, you don’t know if anyone’s even looking at it. So then you gotta wonder, ‘Do I pay the annual fee when I don’t even know what’s really happening?’

I’ve reached out to TaleFlick a few times over the last few months and got a response each time. They’re great at responding. I think they’re building the platform, so I think it’s going to be evolving. And so their next stage is they’re going to be releasing a new platform within the next couple of weeks. They don’t have a final date, but it’s on its way, and it’s a marketplace where you can reach producers and screenwriters directly.

Now, for everyone listening, you don’t know how huge of a deal that is. Because, like I’m telling you, it’s nearly impossible unless you have existing relationships. So, this is a huge thing. And they’re going to give authors the ability to write and promote your own pitch.

So that means you can craft the pitch the way you want it. That pitch will then be visible to producers and studios to search. But I think the real big thing is the marketplace where, sure, you write the pitch, you put it up there, now you don’t have to wonder.

Now, you can actually follow up and do the things that you would do to try and get it in front of people. So, from what it looks like on the outside, it looks like this change that they’re making is going to be really good. So, for 88 bucks, I would try it.

Joanna: Yes. And as we record this in April 2019, that’s the price. But I bet you that won’t be the price long term.

Derek: Yeah. It’s all good. We’re launching a new marketplace, and you’re like, ‘All right, what’s that going to cost?

Joanna: I have also done it, and you upload the book and everything’s fine, and then they ask for your logline, and they don’t prepare you for this. And I know many authors listening, you might have heard of a logline, people might have heard of that, but most authors have trouble crafting the back blurb or the sales description for Amazon, let alone a logline.

As far as I understand it, the logline is pretty much the pitch, or most of it.

Any tips for a good logline considering they allow, 300 characters or something?

Derek: I would say this. I go through a process with each of the books or I think I’ve mentioned I’ve written three pilots that are making the rounds. Writing the book or writing the pilot, that’s a lot of work that takes months, if not years for some people.

But once I get it done, it’s like you start the compression. I’ll take the book, I’ll compress it down to like that 12-page treatment, and then I’ll compress it down to that paragraph, and getting it down to that logline, which is no more than two sentences, basically.

That is probably the hardest process. Because you’re trying to figure out, ‘How do I tell them what the story is in two sentences?’ And so my thing would be is to take your author hat off and put your marketing hat on.

You’re trying to sell this now. Now, you’re trying to sell this to those people that are interested. So you got to think of how do you make it either intriguing, exciting, like, all those emotions?

It could take you a couple of weeks to write that logline. I wish I could say there’s like a formula and really easy way to do it, but I would do that. The other thing that we do that really helps, and you had mentioned it at the very top of the podcast is for ‘The Auctioneer,’ ‘Think: Jason Bourne meets James Bond meets National Treasure.’ Right away, someone can picture in their mind, ‘Here’s what I’m seeing.’

I would almost write the two-sentence logline, which I did this on TaleFlick, at the end of it, you write, ‘Think,’ colon, and then think of two or three movies, TV shows, something that’s current or very successful, and I would put those at the end of your logline.

Because for a studio exec or for a producer, that just cuts right to it. ‘Chase Hardeman, ex-covert operative, returns home to take over the family business and all chaos ensues. Think: Jason Bourne meets James Bond meets National Treasure.’

Joanna: It’s interesting you say that because I did a pitch a thing, and the agent said to me, ‘Wow, that’s a great pitch. That would cost around $200 million to make.’ And he said, ‘Maybe start with something that is a low budget, say, a low budget horror.’

And that was an interesting response because similar to you, I write big-scale books, and I blow big things up. And that was really interesting feedback.

Do you think that’s a tip too? I’ve got a lot of books now, and I’ve uploaded one to TaleFlick, and I’m thinking about uploading another one, which would be cheaper.

Is budget something to keep in mind?

Derek: Yeah, big time. That’s what they’re looking at. When we write the books, well, our imagination can go wild, right? There’s no limit. There’s no budget. We’re going to write the biggest best kind of blockbuster we can.

When you get into writing, say, you’re going to take that book and you’re going to put it into a film or a TV series, the budget has to constantly be playing in your mind. So there’s certain things in ‘The Auctioneer’ that would not make it into the film script.

There’s even more things in ‘The Auctioneer’ that would not make it into a TV script. And why is that? Because of the budgets. So if you come out of the gate with a $200 million movie, well, unless you’re a very successful screenwriter, unless you got a track record, everyone’s looking at it going, ‘Okay, I’m not sure.’

You have the ones that do happen, ‘The Hunger Games,’ some of those ones that hit, but look at the number of ones that don’t.

Joanna: But that was a big book first. Hunger Games was a big book.

Derek: Exactly. When they were first going out with it, I could almost guarantee you they were pitching the book before it got released. Because that’s typically how this works is even before it hits the shelves…because the publishers are going to leverage what the studios will do. So even before the book is out, that manuscript is making the rounds because everything takes forever.

Joanna: Just on that, is that important? Because I noticed, another field I was surprised about on TaleFlick was the year the book was published.

Do you think new things are important, or do you think they’ll be looking for stories in general?

Derek: I think it’s just stories in general. Because say a book gets into production, you’ve optioned it, the studio’s come up with the money, now you’ve got to write the script and all that. That could be a five-year process. So I don’t think it matters so much when the book was released.

Part of what they’re going to look at, they might look at sales on the book so they want to know, ‘Okay, it came out in 2016, and it’s sold 100,000 copies. Okay, that’s decent.’

But what they’re really looking for is they’re looking for stories that are unique and are producable. And like what you said earlier, the budget can play a big factor.

What you might want to do, for example with your treatment is the 12-page treatment that you send out, you may want to write two versions of that; one for the film side, one for the TV side. Or if you want to go strictly film, write two treatments, write a high budget treatment, write a lower budget treatment.

At the end of the day, everyone wants to make money. The studio wants to make money. They want to leverage their bets that they’re going to make their money back and a profit.

Joanna: Often when we’re marketing our books, we’re thinking about the reader, and we’re trying to be in the readers head. And what you’re saying is you need to be in the head of the producer, the director, whoever’s buying, and what they want. And they’re not going to read the book, are they?

They don’t read the book. That’s not what they do. So you have to pitch things in a way that they understand.

We’re almost out of time. I feel like I could talk to you for ages about this stuff.

Anything else that you think authors should know about this kind of pitching process, or what happens next?

Derek: On the writing side, that’s probably the biggest thing is you’ve written your book, and maybe that’s just the way you write, don’t feel like you have to write a pilot. A lot of times people think, ‘Well, I need to write the pilot for the movie before I can get someone interested.’

I think what we’ve been talking about today, it’s a much better use of your time, and it actually can position you in a better way. If you write the treatments, in the long form, short form, the logline so that it’s easy depending on who you’re pitching it to, you’ve got to be sensitive to that because they want to be able to get to it quick. So they’re not going to, like you said, not read the whole book.

But the flip side is if you do write a pilot, and it’s not very good. There’s a lot of technical things in the pilot or the feature script that you have to know. Certain things in a feature script have to happen on certain pages. So if you don’t know that, and you just write the movie, and it reads kind of similar to your book, when you send it out, that’s your first impression. That’s the impression they’re going to get, ‘Oh, no, we’ve got an author now that wants to write a feature film,’ right?

So you have to decide what role you want to play, and so I would say spend the time to really condense those down.

LinkedIn is a great way to find production companies and people that are out there. Search online. Almost all the production companies have some kind of a contact where you can at least talk to somebody, maybe not the decision maker, but at least find out who those people are.

And what we did with ‘The Auctioneer’ is before it even got released, we sent out, I don’t know, probably 50 books with exactly what I’m talking about to the studios, production companies.

Another little tip would be, and this is a little bit of a longer shot, but it’s worked before, is find actors, not necessarily the A-list actors, but find actors that are making their way kind of up the ranks. So you’re not at the Tom Cruise level, but you’re at the Christopher Pine level, right?

Most of those guys these days, especially with the streaming services, they have their own production companies. And so instead of going to a big studio like Warner Brothers or Universal, you go to those production companies because if that actor reads what you’re sending, and it gets them thinking, ‘Oh, this is something that I could star in, and I can executive produce, and I can get points on the back end.’

They start thinking about the business side of it, and they’re bringing something to a studio that they already have a deal with. That’s another way to do it.

Joanna: Super. Well, so many ideas coming out of this, and I know people will be excited.

Where can people find your author site, and your books, and everything you do online?

Derek: djwilliamsbooks.com. That’s where all of it lives. And I’m working on the next sequel to ‘The Auctioneer’ book already while we’re shopping these pilots. So, when you get turned down on the pilots, you feel a little better when you can write when you get home.

Joanna: And as we said, it takes a long time. So just keep on writing.

Derek: Definitely.

Joanna: So thanks so much for your time, Derek. That was great.

Derek: Awesome. Thanks, Joanna.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

In a fast-moving world, indie authors often have more in common with the tech community than we do with traditional publishing. In today’s interview, Jarie Bolander explains some of the realities of being an author-entrepreneur and we discuss the ethical side of creative entrepreneurship.

In publishing news, Streetlib now reaches half the world with their publishing portal encompassing the Middle East, South Asia and Africa [The New Publishing Standard]; PublishDrive expands their Team Royalties feature which makes it easier for authors to co-write and easily split royalties; and The Verge reports on the first AI-generated textbook summarizing peer-reviewed journals.

In my personal update, I share my thoughts from a book research trip to Amsterdam – photos on Instagram @jfpennauthor; plus why indies are a global ‘scenius’ [Kevin Kelly]; plus check out the great interview with Neil Gaiman and Tim Ferriss.

Today’s show is sponsored by IngramSpark, who I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 39,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries and more. It’s your content – do more with it through IngramSpark.com.

Jarie Bolander is a Design Engineer, entrepreneur, author, and podcaster. Today, we’re talking about his book The Entrepreneur Ethos: How to Build a More Ethical, Inclusive, and Resilient Entrepreneur Community.

You can listen above or on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or watch the video here, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• Why entrepreneurs need to be uncomfortable

• The Trough of Sorrow and how it applies to writers

• On questions received from entrepreneurs about getting through tough times

• Raising the level of integrity in the indie author community. Check out the Ethical Author guidelines at the Alliance of Independent Authors.

• The value of disruption and if Amazon has disruption in its future. You can read an article about surveillance capitalism on Fast Company here. And The New York Times on A Better Way to Break Up Big Tech.

• The anger that causes disruption

You can find Jarie Bolander at thedailymba.com and on Twitter @thedailymba

Transcript of Interview with Jarie Bolander

Joanna: Hi, everyone. I’m Joanna Penn from thecreativepenn.com, and today I’m here with Jarie Bolander. Hi, Jarie.

Jarie: Hi, Joanna. How’s it going?

Joanna: It is good. Thanks for coming on the show. Just a little introduction.

Jarie is a Design Engineer, entrepreneur, author, and podcaster. Today, we’re talking about his book ‘The Entrepreneur Ethos: How to Build a More Ethical, Inclusive, and Resilient Entrepreneur Community,’ which is something we all care about. So let’s dive straight in.

Jarie you say in the book, ‘Not everyone can or should be an entrepreneur.” What are the traits of those who do make it?

Jarie: That’s a great question. I wrote a whole book about it, ‘The Entrepreneur Ethos,’ but if I think about it, and I kind of whittle it down to a couple of things that I think are the most important, the first is being comfortable with being uncomfortable.

A lot of the entrepreneur journey is unknown. You just don’t know if what you’re building, what business you’re working on, even as an author. Sometimes, are people going like what I write? And whether or not authors like it or not, they are entrepreneurs as well. They actually have the exact same stresses. There’s the exact same issues and challenges that entrepreneurs have.

So I think it’s really important to be really uncomfortable. In really uncomfortable situations that you’re comfortable zigging and zagging your way through it, that is, I think, one of the most important things in what I found in my journey as an entrepreneur.

And then the second one sounds a little cliche, but I like it and it works, and it’s really enjoying the process and the journey. As an entrepreneur, this is a hard job. The success is fleeting, and hardly ever happens.

If you look at massively successful companies, they’re, what, 1% of all companies. So the odds are pretty low. It’s probably similar odds to being a best selling author, I haven’t quite figured that out yet, but it’s pretty low. So if you don’t enjoy what you’re doing I think it’s going to be a challenge.

Really, it’s important to have a sense of, ‘Things are going to go wrong. I need to be okay with that. I need to be able to zig and zag and figure out what I’m going to do.’ And then you know what? You may never get to the end game. You may never get to the promised land, but if you’re enjoying the journey along the way, then that’s the reward.

Joanna: I agree with you. I am encouraged by the fact that, as you say, 1% or probably less or the unicorn companies, as you say, in America, like if you ask people, ‘Name some companies,” they’ll have a few that they can name in the same way as authors.

But that still means there are hundreds of thousands, millions, of small companies that no one’s ever heard of who are happily making a living.

So you can be a midlist entrepreneur, right?

Jarie: Exactly. It’s a great way to put it. This is the reason why I wrote the book as well.

So you can look at a lot of books about entrepreneurship and they’ll tell you all about how to grow and minimum viable product, and one metric that matters, and all the little external things, but not a lot of people write about the internal mindset.

The reason why I wanted to do this is because I was talking to a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of young entrepreneurs, a lot of minority entrepreneurs, a lot of women entrepreneurs, and they’re really frustrated with either not having the mentorship or not really understanding like, ‘What does it take inside my soul? What is in here that really makes a difference?’

There’s a lot of people that are very “successful,” that are mid-level or they have their little deli business or they’re like the garbage man that are going to make a life for themselves. And as an entrepreneur, what you really want to do is build this independent life that completes you.

And completing you may not be the million, billion-dollar exit, it may just be, ‘I’m my own boss. I can do what I want to do. I can take a nap at 3:00 in the afternoon. I can do these things that are important to me.’ So, yeah, you can be lots of different levels of success.

Joanna: I certainly agree with you there. You talked about some of the stresses, and issues, and challenges, and the mindset, and one of the phrases you have in the book is, ‘Trough of sorrow,’ which I really like.

Can you talk about the ‘Trough of sorrow’ as it applies to authors?

Jarie: I’m sure all of us have been in the trough of sorrow when we’re trying to figure out how to make a story that works.

This was actually coined by Paul Graham, and he was the founder of something called ‘Y Combinator.’ And ‘Y Combinator’ is one of the premier accelerators in Silicon Valley; lots of people go through it and there’s been lots of unicorns out of it.

Essentially, he came up with this graph on technology adoption and how things come about in the world. And this is a very kind of common theme among innovation. Any kind of innovation follows this sort of hype curve. And the trough of sorrow is literally where technologies go to die.

This is the place where if you were to have the analogy of ‘Walking through the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil,’ this is this walking through the valley of the shadow of death. This is the place where you’re either going to gain momentum and gain product market fit or it’s just going to die on the vine.

For authors, you can imagine you’ve got your draft done, you’re trying to figure out if it works, you’re trying to get either get an agent or get people to read it, and there’s various other places where this trough shows up. Like, you release your book and nothing happens.

It’s a really, really tough place to be and entrepreneurs know this in their soul. And the reason is, is because we understand.

And all entrepreneurs when they’ve done this a lot, they understand that a lot of this is luck. A lot of it is market timing, a lot of it’s just like being at the right place at the right time, it’s working hard. So for us, it’s shots on goal. ‘Oh, that one didn’t work, we’ll do another one.’

We’re wrapped up in the process and we’re wrapped up in the product to a certain degree, but we know the odds are really, really slim that whatever we make is gonna ‘make it.’ And for us, obviously as entrepreneurs in like the tech space, making it is billion dollar company exit or what have you. So we are very intimate with the trough of sorrow. We don’t like to go through it.

Thankfully, since all of us have been through it before and typically when you build a company, there’s more people around you, we share the burden. And I think that’s one of the things that, you know, as authors, it’s really hard to have a community of people that you can be like, “Yeah, it’s okay. I know it’s not selling well, or I know it’s not working.” You can kind of commiserate.

We all remember that 1% make it. That means, that’s 100 companies or if you’re an author, that’s 100 books. Do you have 100 books in you to write? Maybe not, but we’ve got to be up for that challenge. That’s why I always say that it’s this journey.

For me it’s been challenging for this because I’ve done six companies, I have been doing this for over 20 years. I’ve also written six books. And it’s the ego inside you that you’re like, “How come this isn’t working? What am I doing wrong? Why is Joe over across the street successful and I’m not?” And that is a hard thing to swallow. And sometimes it’s, you know what? Joe got lucky.

Joanna: I agree, or Joe wrote a best selling genre or something. Back on the mindset issues, that’s what I call comparisonitis; I’m comparing myself to somebody else. And the imposter syndrome, even if you do get some kind of success, do I deserve it anyway?

How do we deal with those things?

Jarie: This is something I struggle with daily. I don’t think there’s a day that doesn’t go by that I’m not like, you know, “How come my book isn’t number one in ethics when it’s about ethics.” It’s source is in the word. Or ‘How come I didn’t land the huge VC deal?’

All those things that you’re just like, ‘Gosh, this is such a hard thing.’ And so for me, what I really tell myself every day is like, ‘Why am I doing this?” Like, really internally? It’s not for the fame or fortune or praise. That is all fleeting. I could be the most wildly successful entrepreneur one day, do the exit, and then it’s like, ‘Okay, now what? What am I going to do now?’

You may have all this fame and fortune, but is that really fulfilling you? Can you really sleep at night knowing what you did to have to get there? Is it worth the risk? Is it worth the suffering? Is it worth the sacrifice to all these things?

For me, the thing I always know, because I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, everyone’s in the same boat. Even if you’re wildly successful, you still have the same problems. You’re still running up against the, ‘Can my business fail tomorrow? Can I hire enough people? Can I get enough money?’

It doesn’t matter what level you’re at. The problems are the same. But as you ascend up, those get more complicated and there’s a higher stakes. So for me, it’s really a question of, ‘Yes, I would love nothing more than to have my book be number one. Why is ‘Servant Leadership Bootcamp’ number one and I’m not.’

Joanna: It’s got the word bootcamp in.

Jarie: It’s got the word bootcamp in it, right? So I’m like, ‘Okay, all right, calm down. Take a deep breath. Step back.’

We can all relate. We all know that person, you’re like, ‘How are they so successful?’ And then I think and I go, ‘Okay, let me turn that around.’

I had the honor and privilege of writing a book that I think is good, it’s my art, it’s my contribution to the world. I’ve put it out in the world. And after I’ve put it in the world, it’s up to the world. I have no control over that. Just like I put a product in the market, I can work, work, work, work, but if no one’s doing blockchain anymore, which now blockchain is completely not passe anymore, when is it going to matter?

I can’t be the Uber of blockchain anymore because nobody cares. So it seems a bit weird and a bit meta, meta, meta, and kumbaya, and again, I mean, I’m trying every day to live this way and every day is a struggle.

I read a friend, I’m like, ‘Gosh, darn it, why that person?’ But then I realize, you know what? I’m actually really lucky. I’m lucky to have the community I’m in. I’m lucky to be part of the Story Grid universe.. I’m lucky that I could publish books. I’m lucky that I have the discipline to write it.

If someone says, ‘How many books did you sell?’ I’m like, ‘Well, how many books have you sold or have you written anything?’ And I get that sometimes all the time, like, ‘Is it worth it?’ I’m like, ‘Yeah, writing is worth it.”

Writing is worth it because I’m the only one that reads it because that is my expression of my gift. What’s my gift? My gift is telling these stories. My gift is giving of myself to the community for which I’m in. It’s the highest honor you can give. If someone reads it, if someone pats me on the back, if someone gets on my blog and says, ‘Great post,’ that’s all upside, that’s gravy, that’s all I can give.

Joanna: Coming back on a more emotional side because this book does have a more emotional side for you and a personal meaning that goes way beyond book sales.

Would you mind talking a bit about that as well?

Jarie: ‘The Entrepreneur Ethos’ was a book that I was writing when my late wife Jane had leukemia. And she was an entrepreneur in the PR space and she would always complain to me about how, ‘You’re a tall white guy, everything’s easy for you.’ Whe was a female Asian. So, ‘It’s hard for us five-foot-two Asian women.”

She had obviously awesome traits that she did with her business. I was thinking about, ‘I’ve got to write another book, I want to write another book.’ And she’s like, ‘Well, you should really discuss how hard it is for minority and women entrepreneurs to get in the game, but more importantly, this internal mindset.’

I was at an accelerator called ‘500 Startups,’ my company at the time, Lab Sensors Solutions, we are going through all the growth hacking and all the stuff that they teach us. And we were some of the older people in the batch, that they call it.

We would be just getting all these questions. “Hey, how do you do this? How do you do that? You guys seem like you have your act together. What is it about you…?: Again, there is someone out there that you may be envious of them, well, they’re probably envious of you in some way.

And that’s another way to think about it, ‘You mean, there’s actually someone out there that thinks that wow, like that, I’m on this pedestal?’

But we started talking to all these young entrepreneurs and it started to turn out that more and more, it wasn’t about how to define your minimum viable product. It wasn’t out on how to growth hack Facebook, it wasn’t how to grow your email list. It wasn’t how to go to market strategy or get product market fit or all that sort of stuff, that was all done before.

What people wanted to know was, ‘How do you get through the tough times? How do you fire someone? If you have a fight with your founder, how do you deal with that? How do you balance your work in life? Is there a work-life balance? Should I be working 80 hours a week on my startup? What kind of hustle do I have to have? What’s the difference between being assertive, aggressive, and an asshole?’

Those were the hard questions. I started interviewing a bunch of entrepreneurs that I knew and came to this conclusion that really, as a community, we didn’t have an ethos. Our ethos was more externally focused, raise money, become a unicorn, exit, repeat.

There was no question about ‘How do we be a better community? How do we be more inclusive? How do we invite minorities and women to participate more?’

If you’re a woman entrepreneur, you get 1% to 2% of all venture money. If you’re a woman minority entrepreneur, you get 1% of the 2%. It’s just ridiculous. This isn’t a job that one is race, gender, creed, nationality, sexual orientation. Anyone can do this job. It’s been proven time and time again.

But it was looking more and more like this old boys club, tall white guys, and even tall white rich guys, even people from the Ivy’s there was really no access. There was really no talk of that. So I decided, ‘Okay, well, you’re either part of the problem or part of the solution. Live your truth. So step up, and here you go.’

Joanna: That’s fantastic. I know your wife didn’t get to see the book done, but it’s great that you did that.

Now, I did want to get deeper into the ethics side because, in recent months, well, not just in recent months, over the years already. I don’t know if you remember the sock puppets, the fake reviews from a few years ago, authors setting themselves up as other names. We’ve had plagiarism scandals happen recently, copy paste stuff, you mentioned like the hacking.

We’ve had black hat stuff happening with Amazon. So there are ethical issues even in the author community, which let’s face it, is nothing as big as the big entrepreneur. So how do we do better? And the thing is, the people listening are ethical people as are we.

We know we are unlikely to have scammers listening, but what can we do to bring up the level of integrity within the community?

Jarie: It starts with standards that everyone agrees to and it starts with a written down set of things we believe. And in every professional community throughout history has had these sort of things, lawyers have it, doctors have it, engineers have it, warriors have it.

It’s a universal thing that when a group of people get together that have the similar craft, that it is in their best interest to make sure that the community is held to a high standard. It just is because what happens is, if it’s not, then the rest of the outside world will not trust the community.

For entrepreneurs as an example, it’s an honor to do this. We literally get told, “Go invent stuff, go figure stuff out. We know that it’s going to be hard. So we’re going to give you a pass on some things. We’re going to give you a pass on maybe some regulations. We’re going to give you a pass on maybe your attitude. We’re going to give you a pass that you are little quirky and you can’t talk to people at cocktail parties and all you talk about is your business. We’re going to give you a pass on some of that.”

But then there are some things that society should not give us a pass on, like discrimination, like sexual harassment, like unethical behavior where that trust that’s put in us gets squandered.

And so as an author community, we’ve even talked about this in the ‘Story Grid’ community because there’s a lot of unethical editors out there too. Every group is going to have their fair share of a-holes and d-bags that are like, ‘Oh, God, do we really have to have him part of the tribe? Can we just shove them out on an ice flow somewhere and just go off into the sunset’.

No one wants to own them because it’s tough. What’s important is that a community have standards that everyone agrees to and that the community polices it because that’s the only way you’re gonna get from an ethical kind of framework to an ethos type of framework.

So for me, ethics are the minimum bar. They’re kind of like letter of the law, you know, ‘Well, it’s not illegal, so I did it anyway.’ Okay, well, there’s some things that are still legal but not ethical or even moral or even have aspire to a higher ethos. And so for me, an ethos is the top. Like, I want to be like the best of the best.

So a community has certain people that are the best of the best, whether writer, ethical, share. There’s a lot of people, like Steven Pressfield comes to mind as one of the people that I look up to. And so how do you prescribe that? Well, you do it like every other group does. You put forth a set of criteria, maybe one to two-page ethos or mantra or a Manifesto.

I don’t like the word manifesto, it implies certain things. But you put forth like, ‘Hey, if you want to be part of the community, what do you think we value?’ And that’s what I did. I actually asked entrepreneurs, ‘What do you value? What do you think this community is all about? How do we build a more resilient, ethical, and inclusive environment? How do we do this?’

That’s how we came up with the ethos. Maybe Joanna, we figure out how to do that for authors. I’m game, write some questions down and let’s get this done.

Joanna: I would say the alliance of independent authors does have an ethical author …let’s not call it manifesto, but it has a list of, these are the things that I believe and I do. So for example, I don’t fake my reviews, that type of thing. So I’ll link to that in the show notes, which is fantastic.

Since you mentioned the ‘Story Grid’, why don’t you tell people why you’re involved in the ‘Story Grid’ and why you do the podcast because that seems quite different to your entrepreneurial self.

Jarie: Tthe original ‘Story Grid’ seminar, which was in New York I think in 2016, I forget, I think it’s 2017. My late wife, Jane, bought me as sort of a birthday present. It was in February, my birthday is in February.

I had always been interested in structure of story of I’m an engineer, so I love quantitative, objective measures of things. And I was also wanted to level up my craft and be a better writer. And I was always running into these like real subjective ways to evaluate writing.

I’d go to like a creative writing class, and I write mostly nonfiction, there’s some fiction stuff I write. But I mean, I would always get this eclectic, vague feedback on, ‘I just don’t really feel it, man’. I’m sure we’ve all heard that.

It would frustrate me because, look, I know that with practice, you can get better. You can get better at anything with practice. Now, clearly, you have to have some talent. And maybe you don’t have a lot of talent in some things. I’m never going to be professional baseball player or basketball player no matter how much I train, but I can still enjoy the sport and I can always get better.

So I was looking for a way to get better. And I found the ‘Story Grid’. In fact, Mark McGuinnes, our mutual friend sent me an email and he says, ‘Did you see what these guys are doing?’

He says like, ‘Look, how come we don’t know about this podcast?’ And like, Oh my gosh, wow, revelation. So I went there and then they had another training in that same year, I think it was September, October, got certified as a sort of ‘Story Grid’ editor.

Then that study group that we had became the roundtable. So the ‘Story Grid Roundtable’ podcast is the five of us that were study partners. It’s interesting because people always say, ‘Oh, do you take editing clients? Do you edit for a living?’ And I’m like, ‘Well, no. I write stories for a living.’

As an entrepreneur, as a PR and marketing person, as someone that needs to convince people of my cool thing, the best way to do that is to tell a better story than the next person. And how do you tell better stories? You learn about story structure, you’ll learn what works, you’ll learn what doesn’t work. You apply that framework to your own writing and your own stories. And you practice, practice, practice, until it flows like water.

So anytime I go to a college or a group of entrepreneurs, and I typically will teach them about how to tell better stories, and how to do more narrative to describe what they do to investors and customers. Every time, I bring a level or like what they call like a superpower to it because no one thinks of it the way I think that because I’m studying story structure.

Not to say that there’s not other people that do that, but boy, it’s just helped me tremendously be able to look at a company or a client or a product, and boil it down to, ‘Well, what’s the story that’s going to work with this? How are we going to convince people?’

Joanna: I think authors forget that telling stories as part of marketing is the whole point.

Jarie: Marketing. No one likes marketing.

Joanna: No, but it is interesting.

Jarie: The M word.

Joanna: You should probably tell Shawn to write Story Grid for business or something, it would be huge. Like, McKee’s.

Jarie: Oh, you’re taking my idea. So if that ever happens, I will give you credit.

Joanna: Yes, McKee did ‘Storynomics.’ And I went to that seminar, which was full of CEOs. And as much as I like Robert McKee, I think the ‘Story Grid’ for business would be better.

Jarie: So you heard it here first. If Shawn and I ever do that, we will give Joanna full credit of that full ethos thing and it will be, “Thanks to Joanna for inspiring this awesome idea.”

Joanna: I want to shift now to disruption because you’re in Silicon Valley with a lot of these entrepreneurs. Disruption is the name of the game. It’s just disruption, disruption, right? As soon as people get comfortable, something happens, it’s disrupted.

Now, back in 2013, Jeff Bezos said in an interview that Amazon would be disrupted. And what’s happening now in the American politics is, there’s a lot of talk about breaking up tech, about surveillance capitalism, which could potentially talk of breaking up Amazon, for example, ‘If you own the store, you can’t play in the store,’ is something I heard from Elizabeth Warren, one of your politicians.

What do you think about this? How could Amazon be disrupted?

Jarie: It’s already being disrupted. Amazon every day is getting disrupted and every day is losing ground because they’re not as agile and nimble as they used to be. This is a really insightful question.

I’m glad you brought it up because this is a huge topic in the U.S. and I think around the world, especially when it comes to technology and automation; self-driving cars, and all those things are going to literally disrupt millions and millions of people.

They did some analysis, I don’t remember the name of the blog person that did it, but the hypothesis was, ‘Amazon’s killing retail. Everyone that’s in retail is dead.’ And they did a graph, and they’d looked at Walmart, Target, Jet, Costco, and all these other things, and they’re like, ‘Oh, they’re growing just like Amazon’s growing. In fact, some of them are growing faster. Why is that?’

And then you’re like, ‘Why is Amazon going into brick and mortar? If retail is, “dead”, why on earth would the biggest online retailer on the planet, maybe, you know, Alibaba is maybe a close second or first, go into brick and mortar retail?’ The worst business model.

It’s kind of like Elon Musk saying, ‘Yeah, I’m going to build an electric car.’ Stupidest idea ever because it is the dumbest idea ever, until you build Tesla, right? So what’s really happening in terms of like an Amazon disruption, in fact, they’re being disrupted in their web services side too with like Google, IBM, and Microsoft all have this Cloud-based on-demand, compute farms.

What happens in Silicon Valley and why disruption occurs is when the big juggernauts get lazy and compliant, and they don’t serve their customers well, someone else sees a gap and says, ‘I’m going to go super-serve them and then I’m going to crush them.’

You see this, now, the edges of it in something called ‘Retail 3.0′. And Retail 3.0 is all about on-demand, on-premises and online. So I don’t know, they have Target in the UK, right?

Joanna: We have a similar type of retailer.

Jarie: Okay. I’ll give you an example. Target in the U.S., you can go online and buy something, you can then go pick it up, or you can have it delivered, or you can go into the store. So now, it’s the ultimate inconvenience for me as a consumer. I can shop around if I want, but sometimes people are just like, you know, “I just need this now.”

That’s the reason why Amazon’s doing brick and mortar. They realize that there is a gap in their offering, where if Jarie needs a bottle of water, I’m going to go to the local store, I’m not going to get Amazon to ship that to me.

Home Depot here in the U.S., Costco, jet.com, Walmart, all realize that this Retail 3.0 thing is starting to take over. And that means there’s a lot of places for disruption.

And then there’s some things that like Amazon will never do well. There’s going to be some things where there is a component of service that has to be personal or local. If you’re buying eyeglasses or you have a pool or spa, that’s another thing where you need someone like if your pool is screwed up, you’re not just going to call someone on the phone, you want the guy to come out. And there’s a whole ecosystem around that.

Amazon will get disrupted. It’s already being disrupted. It usually happens at the fringe. And it usually happens when they’re not super-serving a specific customer and that customer gets angry, and looks for something else. That’s the reason Amazon crushed it in books.

Joanna: I think these big changes are interesting, but for authors particularly, I’m interested in the disruption. For example, Google here in Europe has just been fined a record $1.2 billion or something for advertising their own products first, for putting their own search stuff first, which is exactly what Amazon is now doing with their books.

When you look for a book, APub, Amazon Publishing or Kindle KP Select books will be favored in some way, what it looks like, we don’t know that. But when there’s big fines like that, when the talk of, can you be a publisher and own a bookstore and own the ads.

Do you think those are the things that authors who are listening care about more? Where’s the disruption there potentially?

Jarie: When it comes to a marketplace, and this has happened over time, all companies that get big and greedy want to take more and more of the pie. It’s natural.

There was a retailer here in the U.S. called Sears and Roebuck, and anyone that’s my age will remember Sears and Roebuck. It was the Amazon of its day in the 1800s or early 19th century, had the catalog and all this great stuff.

And then they went from the catalog, they went to the store and then the store had this stuff, and they did insurance, and then they did all these sorts of things. Now they’re bankrupt. The reason why they’re bankrupt and the reason why that sort of model breaks down over time is that people get angry.

I know you talk a lot about being independent and spreading around all of your assets and I actually was listening to one of your podcast and I’m like, “I’ve got to write that down. I should be a little more independent and spread my assets around.” Because I’m mostly on Amazon, just to be honest, one, because it’s convenient, and two, that’s kind of until I started looking into this, that’s all I knew.

So as an author, the real important thing is, is that you need to control your intellectual property and you need to be able to spread that as wide as you can.

And there will be services that will pop up because they’re already popping up, where Amazon is not going to be the main distribution channel for long simply because it’s too restrictive. When you are trying to control a marketplace and give your own things an advantage where you’re like, ‘Okay, let’s let the best thing win,’ over time, people are like, they get mad.

And then enough people get mad, they’re like, ‘Well, we’ll just create our own thing.’ And people do that.

Podcasting is the best example of this. Even though there’s Stitcher and Apple podcasts, and all these other things, anyone can produce a great podcast, put it out in the world and try to gain people’s interest.

Now, the ultimate is someone you gain interest and someone gives you a way to directly communicate with them, like their email. You don’t even get who your customers are sometimes on Amazon. You sell a book through Amazon, you don’t know that I bought your book, you have no idea. That’s bad for you as an independent business.

I want to know my customers intimately. I want to be able to say, ‘Hey, Joanna, thank you so much for buying my awesome book. I really appreciate it. You know what? If you tell 10 five friends I will give you this great little thing that only you have.’

Now we have a relationship and even formula, retail types want to do that. Once this starts to get so onerous and people that are independent, like Shawn and Steve, they have black Irish books.

Why did they have black Irish books? Because traditional publishing, they didn’t like the model. How come the Story Grid stuff existed? How come Tim Grahl, who you’ve had on your show, the way he does book launch marketing and book launching and stuff in his book, you know, ‘Running Down a Dream’? This is all the new reality, like, yeah, like,

Amazon, for example, is an important distribution channel. Is it the only important distribution channel? No. Will it over time? Will there be other ones that will pop up? Oh, yeah absolutely because people are mad at them. And then when you get pissed off, people are like, ‘Let’s build something’. And then you get, was it Kovo or Kobo up in Canada or whatever it is, like, people are like, ‘Yeah, let’s do it.’

Joanna: I think the surveillance capitalism and if people haven’t heard that term, it’s really being talked about a lot now, that’s what has made more people more angry and kind of moving into buying from different places.

It’s interesting because I got the Kindle as soon as I could back in 2010 or whenever it was when the international Kindle, and it was the first one I could even buy, so they got me on day one. But it’s interesting because since Amazon moved to the advertising model, I can’t find books like I used to be able to find books. So as a reader, I am mad.

And it’s so crazy the first time in, well, ever, I now go on Apple Books because they are serving me books that I want to read, which is fascinating because I’ve not behaved like that as a reader before, so I think you’re right.

For people listening, whatever you’re mad about, that’s probably what will be disrupted.

Jarie: Absolutely. Look at you, three and a half million people have listened to your podcast, you’ve sold all these books, right? You again, admitted first one with the Kindle, super excited, and then over time, they kind of wear on you, right? They’re like, ‘This doesn’t seem fair.’

Because most people are like, ‘I want a fair and just society or marketplace where the best thing wins.’ And over time that happens. And then sometimes we get totalitarianism. So more and more control. And then people are like, ‘No, no, this isn’t going to work. We need more and more freedom.’ And then it sort of ebbs and flows, and ebbs and flows, and that’s where disruption happens.

I’ll give you the best example that I can think of right now. Google owns Search, Bling and all those other ones are just, Yahoo is all good. People are mad at Google because they track you, they serve you ads, they know everything about you. So there’s this new search engine that’s new as a couple of years ago called DuckDuckGo. So you’ve heard of it?

Joanna: We use it. Brave is the other one.

Jarie: Yeah. So it’s a search engine, how hard can it be? You’re going against Google, you’re going to get crushed. Well, no.

Why? People are angry that Google tracks them, DuckDuckGo doesn’t. There’s a disruption. There’s a new feature function, and now a whole new group of people are like, ‘My privacy is important to me. Therefore, I am going to forego the more convenient, better results at times, Google Search, and I’m going to search on DuckDuckGo because I’m going to put my capitalism, my time and effort to something I believe in.’

That’s what authors need to do. Yes, building your author platform is super hard. Yes, the marketing part is yucky. You finish the book, you’re half done, you need to now like tell people. But if you get into communities and if, like you said, you’re here to make some ethical choices eventually people will find you.

Eventually, the people that are constraining that and trying to optimize for their own benefit, and not really letting the marketplace sort it out, they’ll go the way of Sears and Roebuck. It just happens constantly. If the only constant is change, I know that again, that’s cliche, but I’ve seen it so many times, and that’s just accelerating. So lots of opportunities, even if you feel a little frustrated now.

Joanna: As ever, I’m a glass-half-full person and I think there’s amazing opportunities, but things will keep changing. As you say, they have in the 10 years I’ve been in the independent community. We could talk about this all day, but we’ve run out of time.

Tell people where they can find you and your books, and everything you do online.

Jarie: So you can find my books on Amazon, of course, because that’s where they all are.

Joanna: And soon to be wide.

Jarie: And soon to be wide. I’ve got to study your last couple of podcasts. I’m on Amazon. I blog on thedailymba.com, which is my tips, tools, and techniques for entrepreneurs.

I co-host a podcast called the ‘Story Grid Editor Roundtable’ podcast with Valerie Francis, Anne Hawley, Kim Kessler, and Leslie Watts, who are some of the smartest people I know on story.

Everyone says, ‘If you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room.’ Well, I am literally in the right room on ‘Roundtable’ podcast. So it’s been such a great joy to be with them and like, learn what they learn, and really, that has just been a kind of mind-expanding experience.

And as an entrepreneur, sometimes we get kind of down in the weeds on our product and all the fancy dancy stuff and we’re crushing it or whatever. And just to step back and look at the creative side and figure out how to tell my story better.

I’m writing a memoir right now about my life with Jane, and I would never been able to do that without the ‘Story Grid’ and the support of the community and authors like you; listening to how you do things and how your mindset and Mark McGuinnes as well. He’s just been a mentor to me for almost 10 years, so it’s been a long time.

I know even Shawn Coyne and Steven Pressfield, and Tim Grahl, and all those people that have been really giving, and I just hope to give as much as I get.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jarie. That was great.

Jarie: I appreciate it. Thank you.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

The main mission of The Creative Penn is to empower authors to take control of their writing career, so it’s wonderful to interview business-minded, traditionally published author, Ruth Ware, on the show today. She explains why self-editing is the key to writing a book that might get a book deal, plus why authors need to understand their contracts and to always think like a freelancer, not an employee.

In the introduction, I talk about an article on advances and talking about money in publishing with a lot of interesting comments in The Guardian. Plus, I recommend a couple of books: Closing the Deal on your Terms: Agents, Contracts and Other Considerations by Kristine Kathryn Rusch, and also Hollywood vs the Author with chapters from a lot of big names on the perils of TV & film deals.

Join me for a free webinar on How to Master Amazon Data to Sell More Books with Alex Newton from K-lytics. Thurs 11 April 2pm US Eastern / 7pm UK. Click here to register for your free place or receive the replay.

Do you need a professional editor or book cover designer? Do you need help with marketing, publicity or advertising? Find a curated list of vetted professionals at the Reedsy marketplace, along with free training on writing, self-publishing and book marketing. Check it out at: www.TheCreativePenn.com/reedsy

Ruth Ware. Photo Credit: Gemma Day

Ruth Ware is the award-winning and New York Times bestselling author of five crime thriller novels, including In a Dark, Dark Wood and The Woman in Cabin 10, which have both been optioned for screen adaptation. Her books have been published in over 40 languages. Her next book is The Turn of the Key.

You can listen above or on iTunes or your favorite podcast app, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• Getting feedback on first drafts from those who know how to be honest

• On changing genres and changing pen names

• How publishing has changed since Ruth got involved in the early naughts, including a shift in the balance of power

• On the language of love and relationships in publishing

• The reality of being a full-time writer and why you are always a freelancer, not an employee.
• The pros and cons of selling world rights
• The intricacies of publishing contracts
• The importance of peer support when contract terms are unfamiliar

You can find Ruth Ware at ruthware.com and on Twitter @RuthWareWriter

Transcript of Interview with Ruth Ware

Joanna: Hi, everyone. I’m Joanna Penn from TheCreativePenn.com, and today I’m here with Ruth Ware. Welcome, Ruth.

Ruth: Hello, and thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: Oh, it’s great to have you on the show. Just a little introduction.

Ruth is the award-winning and New York Times bestselling author of five crime thriller novels, including ‘In a Dark, Dark Wood’ and and ‘The Woman in Cabin 10,’ which have both been optioned for screen adaptation. Her books have been published in over 40 languages. And Ruth I’ve seen your books like all over the world, which is super exciting.

Ruth: It’s really exciting for me as well, I’m not gonna lie.

Joanna: It has been but let’s turn back the clock.

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing.

Ruth: I’ve always written. I was always, even before I could write, I was telling stories to my little sister and my teddy. I started all these kind of long-running sagas and my Barbie dolls had these amazing kind of Jackie Collins love lives where they were always falling in and out of love with each other.

And as I got older the stories just got longer and longer and I started to type them out on my mom’s typewriter and my dad’s computer. And eventually, by the time I was a teenager, I was writing pretty much book-length things. I will hesitate to call them novels because they were deficient in a number of kind of important areas, but they were definitely, they were on the way there.

But I never really thought that ordinary people like me could become writers. It always seemed like something someone else did who was more important and had more special things to say. So I kept scribbling away and I kept not doing anything with the books. And then after I went to university, I studied English at Uni which I don’t think it was any help whatsoever to my writing. It was just something to do.

And after sort of a variety of jobs, I ended up working in the book trade, which on the one hand was a really good apprenticeship in some ways for writing. It gave me a really good insight into how high the bar was and how good a submission needed to be to get through as well as some of the kind of more obvious pitfalls.

But the side effect was a massive attack of stage fright. And so I just I carried on writing all through my ’20s beginning of my ’30s. Didn’t do anything with it, just kept putting these books under the bed. And really, it was only when I had kids that I realized that my writing was a hobby and that basically, I didn’t have time anymore for hobbies and that if I wanted to continue doing this I had to find a way to make it pay because I had to be able to afford some childcare to claw back some time because I was working at the same time.

So with that, and two small children and everything else that goes on in life, I knew that the writing was just going to end up going down the plughole with all my other interests and trips to the gym, and the hairdressers and all that, and I couldn’t quite bear to let it go. So it was that in the end, that pushed me out of my comfort zone and made me kind of do something and start subbing to people.

Joanna: Wow, that’s so interesting. And we’re going to come back to working in the book trade. But you mentioned noting how good a submission must be. And I want to ask you first about writing because on your bio page, I was looking at your website and you have tips for writers which is fantastic. And you say that learning how to self edit is one of the most important things for a writer and that made me laugh.

Why is that like one of your biggest tips and any tips on how to do it?

Ruth: I think when writers do ‘how to’ things they always focus on what their particular obstacles were. You can only go by your own personal journey. And certainly for me in spite of working the trade I did that classic debut novelists thing of writing out a book, basically correcting the spelling mistakes and then pressing print more or less. Well, actually emailing it out because most submissions are done electronically now.

But I didn’t take the time to step back, look at it, figure out what was working and what wasn’t working. I got a lot of initial interest. Virtually everybody I sent it to requested to see the manuscript, but I ended up getting turned down or around.

And the reason was because basically, I hadn’t edited it, I’d pressed print pretty much on my first draft. And it was only after that, that I sort of realized what I had done. And I could have kicked myself because it’s writing advice 101, is to, to make a book as good as you can before you send it out.

So I took the best part of a year really and I gave it to friends, which you’re often told not to do, and I can understand why. Because everybody’s mom thinks their is book amazing and will tell them to say because they were the best supportive parent or supportive friend or whatever so you really do need to pick your mates carefully.

And you want it to be the type of person that if you went into a changing room and tried on a dress and said, ‘Do I look amazing in this?’ You want it to be the kind of friend who would say, ‘Actually, do you know what? It doesn’t suit you.’ And not everybody will do that, and not everybody will be honest about your writing.

But if you can find someone who is your kind of reader who loves the kind of books that you want to write but who is honest enough and supportive enough to give you their unvarnished opinion in a nice way, not in a critical way, that’s gold dust and you should hang on to those people. And luckily, I’ve got three or four friends who are amazing at that.

But the best thing that I did for my writing was to start to critique other writer’s works and I joined an online critique group, which sadly doesn’t exist anymore. And participated in a sort of round table exchange. I guess a little bit like an MFA almost.

People would swap extracts and talk about each other’s work. And although I found the feedback on my books really useful, what I found most useful was critiquing other people’s works, because there’s nothing like figuring out what isn’t working in someone else’s book to sharpen your eye for the same problems in your own work.

It’s amazing how often you’ll notice something in someone else’s work and then go back and read your own book and find the same thing in it. And it was at that point that I started to be able to look at my own work with a little bit more detachment and to say, “Is this really working? Is this paciest part? What’s the shape of this book? Does it have the right kind of peaks and troughs in the right places?” And I had never looked at my work that analytically until I started to do it to other people’s.

So yes long answer to quite a simple, it seems like quite a simple bit of advice. But being your own sort of not your own harshest critic but your most constructive critic is I think really important. And ultimately, only the kind of book that you’re trying to write.

Sometimes you’ll put a piece up for critique, and someone will try and rewrite you into their style or into, their own favorite author. And, I didn’t want to be Raymond Chandler, that’s not who I am. I think he’s a great writer, but it’s not my style. And I’m never going to write that kind of, clipped paired prose so having someone try and take out all my adverbs or whatever is not what I need.

But I have gradually come to learn the kind of writer that I want to be. And, I hope to be able to get my prose a little bit closer to that before I pressed into my editors.

Joanna: Great advice there. And I think this is something that a lot of authors get wrong, and a lot of indies, and this is difficult in the self-publishing world, of course, because people can actually press publish. They don’t just have to press print or submit. So I think that’s a great tip.

Now I wanted to ask you, because you didn’t go from that first book to best-selling award-winning, all the success. You were previously published in the YA fantasy genre under another name, Ruth Warburton.

I wondered why the switch of genre and the switch of name, which seems really common in traditional publishing?

Ruth: There’s two parts of the question. Sort of my personal reasons to it and for it, and why it happens full stop.

For me, it was because I was working in adult publishing when I wrote my first book and I didn’t want to submit to anybody I worked with. I had this absolute fear that I was secretly really rubbish and that it would be a painful experience for all of us if my kind of colleagues that I had to work with had to sort of, generally break it to me that I was completely delusional.

So I only started subbing when I wrote completely by accident, really a YA novel, and I wrote it for fun, and then looked at it and suddenly thought, “Gosh, what, actually, this is so different to what I work with that I could send this out to agents.”

I didn’t know anybody in the children’s publishing world. I didn’t know any children’s agents. They didn’t know me. And so it was suddenly incredibly freeing to be just another slush pile author. So that’s what I did. I sent it out to only to children’s agents who I’d never worked with before and it gave me permission to fail in a way which was so freeing.

Unfortunately, it was picked up. I ended up publishing five YA books which were reasonably, they were pretty successful, had a great time. And then I think having done that, I’ve felt like I proved myself in a way.

And the sick idea I had clearly could not be a YA book. It was my first adult book, which was the premise of it is a murder on a hen night. And that was so core to the plot, and could clearly never have been adapted to be suitable for teenagers. There’s not many kinds of 16-year-olds are out there getting married and having hen parties. So it was clear right from the outset that it was going to be an adult book.

We all like to think that we’re kind of we’re special and unique writers and of course we are, but we’re also brands. You have a certain type of style, you have a certain type of reader, they’re looking for a certain type of thing. And it’s a bit like nobody wants to buy, I dont know, Chanel perfume in a Heinz ketchup bottle. That is confusing to the readers.

You want to know when you buy this type of book, you’re getting this type of product. So having made a name for myself as a YA fantasy writer, this was clearly something so different that it needed a different name.

And there were kind of practical reasons as well like my crime novel had a certain amount of blood and gore and swearing and bad behavior and I didn’t want my little 13-year-old readers thinking, ‘Oh, great. Ruth Warburton,” and picking it up and getting outraged letters from their parents and stuff. So it just seemed all around like a really great idea to have a fresh start, a fresh kind of name.

And it’s not a secret in any way. In fact, I deliberately chose my crime name to be quite similar to my previous writing name because I didn’t want it to seem like I was sort of trying to deceive anybody. But it’s just a really, it’s a really easy way of making the distinction and telling the reading public this is this audience, this is the other audience.

Joanna: I think the reason I’m asking also about why publishing does this is and this is not about you this is a kind of a publishing question is the author someone like Paula Hawkins for example with ‘Girl on the Train’ was billed as a debut, whereas that was actually a debut under a new name.

You and I both know quite a lot of authors who this has happened to. They’ve been billed as a debut and actually they have a backlist under another name. And I think sometimes it might not be a secret but it’s not well known.

Is this a really common thing in traditional publishing?

Ruth: I wouldn’t say it’s common, common but certainly the agent, Lizzie Creamer, has written about “bad track,” which is a reference to the way that increasingly bookshops make their buying decisions based on the author’s previous sales figures.

And that can be a real problem if you’ve written something very different or something much more ambitious or something that just frankly has potential for a bigger audience. And yet, the buying decisions are being made on your previous novel, which was, I don’t know, a quirky niche thing about beekeeping in the Yemen. That sounds quite commercial now that I’ve said it.

Joanna: Yeah, that sounds great.

Ruth: Thanks. But it’s a very blunt tool and using a different name in that sense is a way to reset those pre-conceptions for each book as it comes and assess it on its own potential.

Certainly, in my case, I was quite careful always to say that it wasn’t my debut adult novel because obviously I had written other books and that wasn’t a secret.

I think the other thing is that the trade loves a debut. When you’re shiny and new you have unlimited potential and booksellers and publishers feel that. In some ways, being able to press the reset button on your career can be quite useful and authors do on occasion make use of it.

Joanna: I can see that and it’s funny because I think publishing is so full of smoke and mirrors. It feels like there’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes and that’s one of those things that when I discovered it, I was like, ‘Whoa, that’s kind of crazy.’ But then of course, I use different names as well now.

I wondered, since you talked we’ve talked a bit about working in the book trade, how have things changed in publishing since you first got into it?

Ruth: Oh, I mean, just so much. So I started working in publishing just after the year 2000. People were still, faxing stuff around. They were still couriering author photos because we didn’t have scanners in the office to digitize anything.

And of course, most importantly, the ebook didn’t exist. Everything was still print books and the high street was where you bought your books.

I don’t think in some ways the ebook has changed the publishing landscape quite as much as people thought it might when it first came in. I think there were real expectations that it might be, like a Napster kind of scenario where suddenly, overnight, almost the CD market just collapsed. Unfortunately, that hasn’t been the case.

The print book market is still pretty healthy. But it’s completely changed the options and the possibilities for authors. And it’s changed the balance of power to a certain extent. Now, it’s fantastic that writers do have a solid plan B if they, if they don’t want to be with a traditional publisher anymore. If that route’s not working out for them, they have other options which for a long time they absolutely did not. So I think you can’t really overestimate the amount that the ebook has shaken up the landscape in that respect.

Joanna: You’ve mentioned they’re selling in bookstores, and I think selling in physical bookstores is one of the main differences between a traditionally published author and a self-published author because, even though we have print books, they’re sold online. Even if they’re on blackwells.com or whatever they are, they’re sold online.

You and I have talked before about this and we know both traditionally and self-published authors.

What are the things that authors get wrong or the things that authors think is untrue about publishing or assume incorrectly about the publishing process?

Ruth: Oh, Crikey. Specifically, I don’t know what the one thing is the people mostly get wrong, but I think there are huge amounts of misunderstandings and assumptions on both sides.

I think one of the biggest sort of, not traps exactly, but one of the most dangerous things authors can do is – I’m speaking for traditionally published authors here because obviously, it’s very different if you’re self-published – but they imagine that their publisher is their employer.

I think it’s really important to remember that you’re not an employee in the same way as someone who’s working for the publisher. You are a freelancer and your publisher doesn’t owe you a living, unfortunately. You’re only ever as good as your previous contract. And that can be something that’s really difficult to get your head around.

And the other thing that I think can be really difficult to remember is there’s a lot of very emotive language in publishing. People talk about being dumped by their agent or by their editor. And when editors receive a book that they adore, they sometimes write what’s called in the trade a love letter to the author, and it’s basically designed to make you choose that publisher.

The whole language of agents and editors and publishing is all wrapped up in the language of love and relationships. And it’s not. It’s a business relationship. These people may be friendly, but they are not your friends.

Your editor’s primary responsibility is to their employer, which is the publishing house. So no one will ever care quite as much about your book as you do as an author and I think it just pays to keep reminding yourself that at intervals.

Joanna: I love that you said that because and that’s actually why I invited you on the show because I’ve heard you say things like that. And I think being a business minded, traditionally published author seems quite rare.

Most authors do have a day job. That’s the truth of it, isn’t it?

Ruth: I did for a long time as well. It’s, unfortunately, author incomes being what they are, most people need to have two strands of income.

Joanna: You have had incredible success and I wondered, what’s the reality of being a full-time author? Is it that you just sit in your Garret writing all day or are you doing lots of other things.

Are having to do marketing, speaking, traveling, that type of thing?

Ruth: It is a real kind of left brain right brain thing because ultimately if you wanted to make a lot of money, you would not become a writer. We would all be, I don’t know, in finance or banking or something like that. So it’s not what motivates people usually to take up a career in writing.

The reason we all want to be writers is because we are storytellers, and we love words and we love stories. But that said, if you want a career in writing, you do need to switch that side of your brain off on occasion and try to treat it like a job, which I do.

I have office hours, which I keep. I pretty much try to show up every single day. Write for a certain amount, keep up with my admin. I am religious about doing stuff like reading my contracts, querying anything that I don’t understand.

There was a terrifying survey. I think it was carried out by the Society of Authors a few years back. And I can’t remember the exact figures, but it was something like 50% of authors did not know whether they had sold world rights to their publisher or not. Which is the equivalent of not knowing whether you own or rent your house.

This is a fundamental question. I had read it and I honestly thought that I made a mistake or something and then I re-read the piece. And that’s not knowing whether you’ve sold your IP or not and your IP is your living.

It’s the only thing that as a writer that makes you money, and if you don’t know whether you still own that or not it’s incredible to me that anyone could be basing their livelihood on that and have not bothered to find that out.

I appreciate that a lot of it is down to the way publishing contracts are worded very confusingly. There are lots of terms that unless you, it’s like Dick Cheney would say is the unknown unknowns.

If you don’t know the difference between joint accounting and single accounting then you may not understand quite how important it is that at the end of a long paragraph of legalese is tact jointly accounted and yet that can make the difference between your book earning out or not.

For anybody who is wondering what the difference is, in publishing contracts you typically sell more than one book because publishers want to invest in you as a writer and in your career and you will get an advance set against each book.

If those advances are jointly accounted, it means that you have to earn more royalties than all of the advances added together before you start getting any money. So if you have one super successful book and the others don’t perform quite as well, the super successful book has to fill up all the pots of money for the other books before you start to get money for it.

Whereas if contracts are singly accounted, it means each book has its own separate pot of money. So you will start getting money for the super successful book as soon as that pot is filled up without having to worry about the fact that all of these other pots are still half full.

And it’s small things like this that can make a difference in some cases of hundreds of thousands of pounds. But unless that you don’t know it, you don’t know whether to query it with your agent.

I don’t think anyone is trying to keep authors in the dark but there’s an awful lot of kind of convention and confusing language. And authors don’t ask the questions very often. Perhaps because they don’t want to bother people or they don’t want to look ignorant, or they don’t know how important these small details are.

Agents aren’t always the best at explaining it neither are editors because to them, it’s so super obvious what something is. They forget that there was a time when they didn’t know the difference between these things. But there’s no question that I will not ask and no clause that I will not query because, this is my livelihood and I need to understand all of this to know what position I’m in.

Joanna: Again, I’m super glad that you talked about that. And it’s so interesting. I think a lot of authors are just grateful that someone thinks their work is good enough to publish.

You talked about emotive language and the ego side and the validation side is a big part of why people go the traditionally publishing route I think these days. But it’s interesting you did mention their licensing world rights.

I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about contracts right now that basically, publishers want world English rights, all formats including audiobook, ebook, print rights, etc, for the whole world. And they’re not up for negotiation.

Is that something that you’re aware of or you think just you have to negotiate?

Ruth: There’s pros and cons here. It’s definitely something that anecdotally publishers are making much more of a push to own all rights connected with a book. And you can understand why because if they make a huge success, particularly, in the home market.

So say if you’re a British writer, and you spend a long time working with a publisher, a British publisher. And they edit the book, they spend maybe years in some cases making this book as fantastic as it can be, they market it beautifully, it wins prizes.

And then an American publisher picks it up, and they don’t have to do any of that work that the British publisher has done. It’s already edited. It’s already, proofread, it’s already in really good shape, it’s already got marketing behind it. The British publisher doesn’t get anything from that. They’ve done all of that work, and the American publisher is benefiting from it. So I can understand why publishers do it basically.

But from an author point of view, you have to understand what the pros and cons are and there are pros. The pros should be that if you’re selling more IP, you should be getting more money for that. Absolutely. And you should also be getting more security because if your publisher has world rights, they have a much bigger incentive to make the book work.

Because if they don’t, they will be losing not only all those home sales territories, but they’ll be losing the potential to sell the book to other territories as well. Because if they haven’t made a success of it at home, it’s going to be much more difficult for them to sell it abroad to in translation or to other publishers.

But from the author’s point of view, when you sell those rights, what you’re giving up is a cut of each of those deals. So effectively at that stage, you have two agents. You have your own literary agent who will be taking a percentage of the original deal to your publisher and then you have the publisher who will be selling on all of those rights to other territories and each time they do that they will be taking a cut of those sales.

So you as the author will be getting a much smaller share of the pot and potentially too you’ll be giving up a degree of control.

We’ve seen situations in the newspaper. Francesca Simon who wrote the Horrid Henry series has been very vocal about the fact that she has not received any income, well, any significant income from either the Horrid Henry film or TV series.

That was a deal that was brokered by her publisher because she had sold the film and TV rights to her publisher. Had she had those rights herself, she might have been able to negotiate a better contract, one that ensured her more income from the success of those deals. But as it was, it was all bundled up, sold as one and her publisher had pretty much the control over the deal as far as we know that’s how it’s been presented in the newspaper report, certainly.

So yeah, it’s swings and roundabouts, and there’s arguments for going both ways but the key thing is that you have to make an informed decision, you have to understand what you are giving up and why you are making that decision. And I worry that not all authors do understand that when they make those decisions.

Joanna: I agree with you. And I think there’s a case for both ways, but as you say if you understand contracts. As we both agree, not enough authors know about this stuff.

Do you have any sort of ways that authors can learn about contracts, any sort of places or resources that you recommend?

Ruth. No. I don’t know, unfortunately, and I think there’s probably a market for a really good kind of publishing for dummies book. Not that any of us are dummies I don’t think but something that really demystifies the language.

Some publishers have started to get better about this. Some contracts have a glossary now and try to explain some of the more confusing terms.

But I’ve had situations where friends have said to me, “What does this particular term mean?” and I’ve Googled it and found six different, sometimes contradictory, variants of the way it’s being used by different publishers. And so it’s not surprising really that in that circumstance people are confused about it because these terms aren’t always being used consistently.

Negotiating contracts is a really, really specialist skill. I try to understand my contract, but I do it knowing what the norms and knowing what the hidden traps are that’s why publishers deal through literary agents and why as an author, I’m very happy to give up a chunk of my income to my literary agent because that’s their responsibility.

But now as far as teaching yourself, I wish I could say that I knew of a great website, that would demystify it all. I don’t, but somebody definitely needs to start one.

Joanna: Brilliant. I guess the other tip is, make friends with your other authors, your fellow authors, and there’s a lot of shared in the community that can help over time.

Ruth: Absolutely. Yeah. Authors are often your best friend as an author and finding out just what’s normal. The number of times I’ve had conversations with people where someone’s been, like, ‘This is happening. Is this, okay?’ Sometimes the answer is, ‘Yeah, yeah. I know it seems weird, but that’s just how it is.’

And other times the answer is, “No, that is emphatically not okay and you need to put a stop to it.” And often as a as someone just starting out in the business, there’s no way of knowing that unless you’ve had that conversation.

Joanna: I could talk to you forever but we are almost out of time. I want to ask about your next book.

‘The Turn of the Key,’ is out in August 2019. Tell us a bit about that.

Ruth: Well, as you may have guessed from the title, it’s slightly Henry James-ish, in the sense that it’s about a nanny who is… well, it starts off in prison. She’s writing to her lawyer from prison and she’s explaining how a death of a child in her care came about and why she was not responsible for the murder.

It’s set in a spooky smart house where things start to unravel and go very wrong over the course of the novel. That was great and fun to write and I hope people have as much fun reading it as I had writing it.

Joanna: And your other books too are fantastic. I’ve read a couple of them now. So where can people find you and your books online?

Ruth: I have a brand new spanking website just launched at ruthware.com or as the saying goes in all good book shops hopefully.

Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Ruth. That was great.

Ruth: Oh, thanks for having me, Joanna.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

How do you write about death when you don’t work in that area? How do you get your details right when it comes to autopsies — human, alien, or perhaps even paranormal or fantasy creatures? I discuss this fascinating subject with Geoff Symon today, as part of his Forensics for Fiction series.

In the intro, I discuss what I learned from Ian McKellen’s 80th birthday tour, and why you should “Measure your worth by your dedication to your path, not by your successes or failures.” [Big Magic – Elizabeth Gilbert].

My thoughts on ambition after listening to the fantastic Michael Anderle interview on SPF Podcast 164, and why you need to decide on your own definition of success. Plus, why the indie community is a ‘scenius’ [Austin Kleon].

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

Geoff Symon is a federal forensic investigator and has participated in high profile cases including 9/11 and the Iraq War as well as murder cases and other crimes. He’s certified in the collection and preservation of evidence, blood spatter analysis, autopsies, and laboratory techniques. Geoff is also a certified federal polygraph examiner and highly skilled in the psychophysiological detection of deception.

He has books on Forensics for Fiction writers and today we’re talking about Autopsies.

You can listen above or on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or watch the video here, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• Performing the job of autopsies while respecting the dead

• The three scientific methods of identifying a body

• And why tattoos aren’t one of those methods

• Differences between TV/film forensics and the reality

• On the different stages of body decomposition and how those are reflected in literature

• On an added speciality of working as a polygraph examiner

• The impetus for writing books on blood spatter, autopsies and crime scenes

• Solving your literary crime first so you can seed your mystery or thriller novel with clues

You can find Geoff Symon at GeoffSymon.com and on Twitter @GeoffSymon

Transcript of Interview with Geoff Symon

Joanna: Hi, everyone. I’m Joanna Penn from TheCreativePenn.com, and today I’m here with Geoff Symon. Hi, Geoff.

Geoff: Hi, Joanna.

Joanna: It’s great to have you on the show. Just a little introduction.

Geoff is a federal forensic investigator and has participated in high profile cases including 9/11 and the Iraq War as well as murder cases and other crimes. He’s certified in the collection and preservation of evidence, blood spatter analysis, autopsies, and laboratory techniques. Geoff is also a certified federal polygraph examiner and highly skilled in the psychophysiological detection of deception.

Geoff: Well done.

Joanna: Which is possibly the best bio I’ve ever read.

Geoff, tell us a bit more about your background and how you got into this work.

Geoff: That is actually a story. I get asked that a lot, but it actually fell into my lap. I used to teach forensics at George Washington University and the number one question I would always get from my students is, ‘How do I get into this? How do I get to do what you do?’

It’s the hardest question for me to answer because I was in Korea…how many stories start that way? I was in Korea, working for the State Department, basically admin, doing filing and that sort of thing. And there was a U.S. Air Force person who died. And when you are somebody who works for the American government and are in that position outside of America, if something happens to you, our government says that you will have an autopsy. Next of kin does not have a say in that.

And where they do autopsies in the Asian theater for Americans is Okinawa. And so the remains had to be transported from Korea to Okinawa. And I was the newest one in-country and so I got volunteered to do that.

I had to escort these remains and be in that autopsy. And I didn’t want to do that. I didn’t want to be a part of it, but I had to.

The pathologist was really, really good with where I was in with my personality and my hesitation and whatnot. And he just would give me little tasks throughout the entire autopsy. And as I did little tasks, little tasks, little task, before I knew it, the autopsy was done.

I went back to Korea, had my little life, it was fine. And about six months later I got a call from this pathologist and he said, ‘Listen, the government is putting together a specialized forensics program. We’re looking for volunteers. We’ll send you to school, but then your payback will be time served with the government. Would you be interested? If you put a package together, I’ll back it.’

I said, ‘Sure.’ And that is my origin story. When someone asks, ‘How can I do what you do?’ I was like, ‘Well, you know, go to Korea.’ I don’t know what to tell them.

Joanna: But surely it comes from, presumably, this guy noticed that you weren’t freaking out. You weren’t like throwing up in a corner or something.

There must’ve been something about your character that worked in that situation.

Geoff: I guess so. I guess because he set it up for me where I was very task oriented during that time, that fit well with what I could handle during that procedure.

Once I actually got into forensics and learned the science and reason behind things, it became much less gory for me. It became much more academic and a job that needed to be done. If that makes sense.

Joanna: That’s fantastic. that leads me into my next question. We mentioned that in your bio, you were involved in 9/11. That job was accompanying human remains. Obviously, you’re doing a job, as you say, but there’s an emotional side of working with death, especially in these mass death situation.

How do you practically do your job while still respecting the dead?

Geoff: That’s another popular question I get and how it’s mostly phrased to me is, ‘Do you have a switch? Do you turn it on and off? How do you deal with the emotions of it?’

I was thrown into the deep end of the pool when I started my forensics career in that my first specialty, my first focus in forensics when I actually started doing investigations was in the realm of crimes against children. And so it was through there, through those types of cases that I developed the way I approached this very quickly, and that is you have to look at what you’re doing.

I don’t want to say that it’s a switch that I can turn off my emotions so much because the emotions are still there and the emotions are valid and actually I believe the emotions are needed, but it’s a way of looking at the task at hand.

When I was working with children, the task at hand is these little, young people are a victim here and I’m the one tasked to help them. And if I’m an emotional mess crying in the corner, I’m not helping them.

I’ve got to take my emotions and channel them in a way that I can do my job for them. And then when I started autopsies, it was basically the same thing.

I am the last person involved with this person here, with this deceased person, and this is this deceased person’s last medical exam. This is this deceased person’s chance to get any sort of justice, and if I become emotional about it, I’m not fulfilling that task. And in a way of honoring them, it’s channeling those emotions so that you can do your job.

Joanna: That’s a great way of putting it. And of course, a lot of people write books in order to deal with a lot of this stuff and it brings up emotions. But I wondered about the stereotypes of people who work with death.

Now it’s so funny because you get the kind of creepy bug guy or the goth woman in the corner with the black makeup.

Geoff: Listen, you say creepy and goth, I say attractive.

Joanna: I’m with you, and I call myself a vanilla goth actually because I’m goth on the inside. I feel like as writers we do often write these stereotypical people dealing with death.

What types of people work in the death arena as such, so we can write more authentic characters?

Geoff: I think I’m going to answer that two ways if you don’t mind. And the first way is write them as normal people because the coroner doing the autopsy is still a mom who has to get to soccer practice. And the medical examiner who’s trying to deal with the latest mass shooting is also somebody who is hoping that he gets the date he wants or whatever.

So we are normal people, but also we are people who are able to remain calm in an emergency and are able to do what I was talking about before, and use our emotions instead of being controlled by our emotions. I think that’s how I would answer that.

Joanna: So you’re basically saying just write normal people.

Geoff: Yeah.

Joanna: Do you think there’s anything special? Because I think there’s something special.

Geoff: Oh, I think I’m darn special. No, I’m kidding. We’re also very funny if you haven’t noticed.

Is there anything special? Well, talking about funny, we tend to have a specific sense of humor. I believe if you boil it down, it is sort of a defense mechanism, but we are able to find the humor and the joke in most situations, and probably the more emotional, the more humor is used.

And so we may be a little bit more on the morbid side, but we don’t sleep in the basement.

Joanna: In the coffin.

Geoff: Exactly.

Joanna: Okay. So that’s one issue with stereotypes.

The other thing, and when I was reading one of your many books about forensics, talking about stereotypes of identifying the body, now I thought because of TV, obviously, that tattoos could be used to identify a body.

What are the real methods of positive identification?

Geoff: There are three scientific methods of identifying a body. And when I say scientific, that’s what we call having a positive ID. It is scientifically backed and we can say, therefore, this is this person.

Those three methods are DNA, odontology, which are teeth, so if you have previous dental records, you can identify them through their teeth, or fingerprints. And those are the only three positive identification methods.

Now, can you identify people by other means? You can, but we don’t say it as positive. So you can use tattoos but the problem is a completely different person can go to the same tattoo artist and happen to get the same tattoo in the same area of their body. So how can you say that this is, in fact, that person?

And because of decomposition effects and different types of states that the bodies can be found in, we no longer rely on visual ID. We no longer rely on like family members coming in to identify the body. Either the body can look different because of decomposition or the family member can be in an emotional state where they’re not seeing what they think they’re seeing.

It’s just not reliable, and there are too many misidentifications by using those methods. You can use those methods to help in your identification, but there are only three positive IDs.

Joanna: I’m really surprised now because you said you don’t have the family member come in and ID the body, which has to be one of the most regular scenes in films and books.

Geoff: Well, it’s dramatic, right?

Joanna: Totally dramatic. It’s far more dramatic than you entering some little cell into a computer.

Geoff: Exactly.

Joanna: What are the other things that are completely wrong or that you see and go, ‘Oh, that again,’ in a book or film?

Geoff: Mostly, if anyone is writing a scene in the morgue, what typically I find the scene is, is the law enforcement person going to the pathologist to get the update or to talk. And when you go to the morgue, the pathologist is always in the morgue and there are always bodies about, and that’s not how it happens.

Every doctor that works in the morgue has his or her own office and that’s where they do their meetings, and when they go to the actual morgue part of it, they’re there to do the autopsy. And the bodies don’t just lie out. The bodies are stored in a refrigerated room that is put away until those remains are needed. And so, you never have a consultation with a law enforcement person over the body.

Joanna: Everyones just going, ‘Oh my goodness, how can it possibly be dramatic then if there’s no body?’

Geoff: Wait, there’s no drama in sitting across the desk from someone? Yeah, I know.

Joanna: That’s crazy. In ‘Bones,’ I mean ‘Bones’ the TV show, they sometimes have the body in the middle of what looks like the Smithsonian, right? It’s in the middle of the whole museum.

Geoff: Well, let’s also remember in ‘Bones,’ isn’t that the show that they have that wonderful holograph, image maker thing? Yeah. We haven’t quite gotten to that stage yet.

Joanna: Anything else that people regularly get wrong?

Geoff: Yes, but in most of these situations I bring up, I understand why fiction, you can fudge it a little, and that, I’m a firm believer in.

Your story is what’s important. That’s what your readers are buying your books for, and if you need to fudge a little bit, it’s totally okay. You don’t have to be 1000% realistic.

I say, what’s more important than realism is consistency. And so if you’re going to write it, if this is your world and in your world building, it’s not exactly as it is in real life, that’s fine. Just be consistent with it and have it be that way in your world, but then don’t claim that you’re completely realistic.

During an autopsy, we take what we call personal protective equipment very seriously. We cannot chance adding our hairs or whatever as evidence onto the body but also we need to protect ourselves health-wise because you’re dealing with blood and body fluids and whatnot.

But on screen, it’s very difficult to have your actors with masks on all the time. And so what we typically have on TV shows and movies is these beautiful actors standing over the body, fixing their hair, doing whatever, and you don’t really see that.

But I also understand why it is that way because you need, in a very short amount of time, the audience to be able to identify what person is doing what. And so, you can fudge it a little bit, but that’s not realistic.

Joanna: No, that makes sense. But if you’re writing a novel as opposed to a TV show, you can definitely put on some protective equipment.

And in fact, a little off topic, but I’ve just read ‘The Hot Zone’ by Richard Preston about Ebola and a whole load of people doing autopsies on monkeys and stuff. And it was so scary.

Geoff: Yeah. So you take that protection very seriously in the real world.

Joanna: Definitely. You know a lot of writers, you speak at a lot of writer’s things, and you have some great examples of decomposition, the difference between a zombie and a mummy and a lot of people now will have zombies and mummies in their heads.

Using those examples, can you talk a bit about decomposition?

Geoff: The three main characters you see in fiction that relate directly back to decomposition are, you said two of them, zombies and mummies and vampires, and how we view each of those different creatures literally has a direct path back to actual decomposition.

Vampires, for example, we often visualize as very white-faced and sometimes with black veins. And that comes from an early stage of decomposition when the blood seeps out of your arteries and veins, you become quite pale.

That’s typically depicted with having a white face. And as the decomposition starts, one major factor of decomposition is the bacteria in your body. As the blood leaves the veins and arteries, those become passageways for the bacteria. And as they are leaving their waste behind, it darkens the veins. And that’s where you get those black veins in for vampires.

Zombies and mummies tend to be on opposite ends of the spectrums for different types of decomposition. Decomposition really is environmentally based. Whether it’s a wet environment or a dry environment, a cold environment or a hot environment, whether it changes environments because somebody moves the body, all of those have a great effect on the rate and type of decomposition.

So when you’re thinking about a zombie, how they’re typically depicted are green and squishy and whatnot. And that is a pretty valid depiction of a later stage, normal decomposition. The body changes color, typically greenish color until it ultimately turns more like a blackish color, and it’s very wet.

But in mummification, and when I say mummification, I don’t mean the Egyptian procedure of taking out the organs. It’s literally called mummification as a stage in decomposition. It’s a very arid, a very dry environment in which the moisture is out of the air and because the moisture is out of the air, the bacteria can’t function or live as well as in a normal, I say normal environment, but in an environment we’re used to.

And so mummies tend to be more brown and brittle instead of squishy. And we see that when you depict them in fiction and so I love that each of these have their base in an actual decomposition.

Joanna: Which is pretty cool.

Are there any other creatures made up of the stages of decomposition?

Geoff: I’d have to think about that for a minute. I’m not sure. I’ll get back to that one.

Joanna: Well, one could ask the more supernatural question.

In terms of ghosts do you feel like the dead body is a dead body and there is no person left? Do you feel like that or have you experienced any kind of supernatural or ghostlike encounters?

Geoff: I haven’t had any personal extra experiences like that, but how do I answer that? I feel like I do treat each all remains as with respect. I guess that’s how I want to say that.

I think there are various beliefs throughout the world on what happens to a person after death. And some beliefs are the eternal soul is linked to the condition of the body, some beliefs are once the person’s dead that their essence is elsewhere and the vessel no longer is that person. And there’s everything in between.

I think that remains need to be treated with respect just so that everybody is honored, if you will, and all beliefs are honored. And I think we find that even at least in the United States, all of my experience forensically is United States just to make that clear.

If we have a body that is unidentified, or better yet unclaimed, so you can’t find next of kin or the next of kin just outright refuses to take responsibility for the body, what do we do with those bodies? A body is released to a mortuary and they normally release it to a funeral home but what if you don’t have that permission or even know what the family would wish for that body?

The counties or states all have laws in that any unclaimed remains will either be buried or cremated and buried by that county or state. So they still respect the remains. And I have the same outlook on that, so that there is respect involved.

Joanna: I think the other thing I was thinking of then is, in America, from what I’ve read, embalming is very common, whereas in the U.K., certainly, it’s not very common at all. It’s just not something people do.

Many of the listeners are crime writers, and there’s often the scene of digging up the remains to do some tests and in Britain, that will be a decomposed body, whereas in America, is that true about embalming?

And does the embalming, for example, get rid of evidence or keep evidence or what would be that difference?

Geoff: Well, there are explanations in the United States, but I was going to say is one of the steps in an autopsy is to take samples of every tissue and organ for storage, and the entire purpose is if you need to do tests later on, you would have the actual tissue preserved for that purpose.

Embalming slows down decomposition greatly, but it doesn’t stop it. And so if we were to do an exhumation, even here in the United States on remains that have been embalmed, they are not in pristine condition from that point on. It’s just greatly slowed.

Joanna: It’s so interesting. Coming back to the mummies. You’ve traveled in Europe, right?

Geoff: Yeah.

Joanna: So there’s a lot of sites in Europe, Italy particularly, of skeletons and mummied monks and things in catacombs and crypts and things.

The mummification process can happen in a natural environment as well, right?

Geoff: Absolutely. The whole thing with mummification is the arid conditions of when the body is going through its decomposition and decomposition is typically furthered by that bacteria that’s inside of us and in a very, very dry, moistureless environment, that bacteria dies out and is unable to go through that decomposition process.

And so what you have is a very brittle result. But even though the body, the skin, and the organs and the bones are very brittle, they’re really well preserved because they’re not being eaten away as we would think in normal conditions.

That is why you can see these mummies throughout the world on exhibit because the drying out process has actually preserved that body. But they all look withered because there’s no moisture. They literally are withered.

Joanna: Very cool. Okay, so back on the fictionalized stuff, because I loved the examples that you had of the different autopsies by genre.

I wondered if you’d give us a couple of examples of those because they are brilliant.

Geoff: Thank you. My books are a series called ‘Forensics For Fiction’ because my goal is to help out authors. And so when I’m writing about a particular topic, I want all authors to know that, hey, this could apply to you as well.

And so when you think of an autopsy, a police procedural is a pretty common genre that you would expect to find those in. But autopsies could be in really any genre.

I like to use the example for a thriller in any sort of contagion type storyline or even like ‘The Da Vinci Code,’ an autopsy is very important to start that clock, that ball rolling in the thriller. So you can think of that there, but you can use an autopsy in romance or a more emotion-filled story.

Death is a very emotional experience and depending on how you’re writing, you could have your main character question why she’s flirting with the doctor when she should be mourning her husband. I don’t know.

Joanna: Evil husband. Mourning evil husband.

GeoffYeah. Right. Exactly, but you can have autopsies in paranormal. How does your paranormal character have a different anatomy and how does that affect your autopsy?

You can have autopsies in science fiction and fantasy for the same reason. Is this an alien creature or is technology different? And in historicals, how was the autopsy done back in that era? And was religion more of a factor back then? Were the tools limiting back then?

I think that you can really apply it in any genre to work through either furthering the story technically or furthering the story emotionally.

Joanna: It’s just reminding me, there’s this very creepy thing in Europe where they put bells on coffins that linked down into the grave because, of course, they didn’t have the technology so sometimes people were buried alive and, of course, you don’t want to be buried alive. So the historical stuff is fascinating.

I loved this anatomy of a goblin, which is brilliant. I’ve never read the anatomy of a goblin in a goblin autopsy.

Geoff: I think very few people have.

Joanna: It’s such a good idea. So, anyone who’s read my fiction will know I’m particularly obsessed with medical specimens and human body parts in jars. I have it in a lot of my books.

And talking about history, the medical history is fascinating. I was in Philadelphia, went to the Mutter Museum last year. Which is fantastic. Really fascinating.

You’ve talked about respect and that’s taken as a given, but what are your thoughts on anatomy museums, the physical body being used after death for research?

Geoff: Like I said, I think respect is important, but I don’t think that using a body for scientific or just plain basic educational needs has to necessarily mean that you’re not being respectful. I think it’s incredibly important for us to continually learn and to understand what happens to our bodies so that we can understand what needs to be done to help us while we’re still alive.

I don’t have a problem with that. I think we do that when we’re alive anyway. If somebody develops a new medication, they go through all these trials and they ask for your consent to go through these trials. Understanding that this may help this, there may be side effects, we don’t know yet, this is all for experimentation.

I think it’s the same idea with someone who’s passed. The only problem is they are no longer present for the consent part, but many, many people get around that by having the consent be done prior to the person passing. And so I feel like if you are doing it in a respectful manner, I’m for it. I think it’s beneficial.

It’s interesting if you go into the history of autopsies, they didn’t always follow the respect rule and often were referred to as butchers because that’s sort of what it was. The earlier people studying anatomy did it because they were curious or morbid or whatever, but I don’t think that they were really considering the consent side of things. But I don’t think it has to be that way. I think it can definitely be respectful and still beneficial scientifically.

Joanna: I was just thinking that criminals often used after hanging. Here in Britain, the Hunterian Museum is full of criminals. Well, supposed criminals, who knows. But it is fascinating.

There are so many things I wanted to ask you and you’ve got a book on blood spatter as well, which is particularly cool.

But I do want to ask you about the polygraph side because that really caught my eye. It seems to me that the polygraph side of your work is completely different to your other stuff, that kind of forensic stuff.

Why the polygraph side of your work as well?

Geoff: Well, because my entire career has been in law enforcement and has been on the scientific side of law enforcement and that is the next scientific endeavor that I entered. I should be clear that I don’t do all of this at once.

Joanna: Because you can’t really do one on a dead person.

Geoff: Exactly. But I was involved with autopsies when I held a position with the Armed Forces Medical Examiner’s Office. And so that’s specifically what we did was autopsies. I am no longer in that position.

Now I go to crime scenes, I deal with the preservation of evidence and I do interviews, and then the interview side of my job is where I was afforded the opportunity to get certified and become polygrapher.

I don’t want you thinking that one person does all specialties at all times. It depends on what job you have and what your focus is. But the reason I looked into polygraph and then ended up going to the school and becoming certified because it’s a scientific technique used in the investigation of criminals. And so that’s what I did.

Joanna: Again, all of us think in our heads of the person sitting in the room with the thing around their arm and someone pressing buttons or whatever.

Are there any issues with the way that type of thing is portrayed?

Geoff: Oh, sure. Absolutely. When most people think of polygraph, they think of daytime TV and who’s your baby daddy? And I will just say there are different types of polygraph tests and it is a valid science that is overdramatized greatly in popular thinking.

Joanna: I just found that fascinating. Is the thread through your work that it’s all about solving the crime?

Geoff: Correct. Yes.

Joanna: Tell us about the other books or all of your books in the forensic series so everyone knows what you have.

Geoff: I started this series called ‘Forensics For Fiction.’ And how that came about was I live with a writer. I was constantly being asked, ‘Well, how would this work?’ or, ‘How long does someone need to be poisoned before…?’ or, ‘If I was gonna dispose of the body…’ and so I got used to answering those questions.

And as he would then travel and go to his different conferences or talk to other writers, I would get more questions from more writers.

It didn’t take me a lot of research to discover that there were two ends of the spectrum if a writer wanted to do research. You could either get the really technical, like, schoolbook version of it, which is really hard to read and slog through, or you could get kind of fluff piece that sort of didn’t really touch on much of what was realistic or how things were done, but just barely glazed over a lot of it.

I found very few books that had that median of it was accessible on one side but realistic and technical enough on the other. And that’s what started the idea of my ‘Forensics for Fiction’ series. And that’s literally what it is.

I’m trying to take the realism of what I do, what my partners and other agents do in real life and make it accessible for the writers so that they understand what the realism is, but better yet decide what works for their story.

Because again, I don’t believe that all stories have to be 1000% realistic. If you’re going to be 1000% realistic, then you’re going to have the cop talking to the pathologist across the desk. And again, I don’t know how dramatic that is.

I want to provide a platter that you as authors can pick from for what works for your story and give it a base that is absolutely based in realism. So, that’s how that started. And my first book was blood spatter, and from there, I wrote my book on crime scenes, and then I did autopsies. The next one that will come out will be on arson.

Joanna: Will you be doing anything on polygraphy and deception or is that just going to give people too many tips?

Geoff: Well, I was joking with you a little bit before this interview and there is a line actually. There is a line of how realistic am I comfortable with you all being, and then at what point does your fiction become an instruction manual for an actual criminal?

I figured that out for myself and then I present it to you all. But if there’s a genuine interest in any subtopic of forensics or investigation, I am more than open to either talking about it or if there’s enough material writing about it. Sure.

Joanna: I think my interest in that deception side, it’s because I think that most fiction writers are, well, we are liars. We lie and we make things up for a living. I’m really interested in the psychology of people who make stuff up.

I don’t know if you have any thoughts on whether we’d be much better at polygraph tests than people who aren’t so imaginative.

Geoff: Yes and no. The deal with polygraph is its entire premise, its scientific base is based on something internally. You guys don’t have to remember this, but it’s called the autonomic nervous system, which is something that we can’t control with our brain.

They are physical responses that occur separate from our cognitive thought and because they’re automatic and we can’t control them, that is where the polygraph comes in and is monitoring those reactions within your body. So even well-versed liars still can’t control the reactions have with inside their body.

But to take a sharp left turn here real quick, I think what I would say for people writing that is the same thing that I say about people writing crime scenes. And that is if you want to write about lying or solving a crime, the best way to do that is to figure out how you’re going to resolve that issue before you get into writing the issue itself.

When I’m talking about crime scenes, I say, solve your crime before you commit it. Because the trap that most authors fall into is they have an exciting idea about a crime scene. You’ve never heard about this crime scene before, I’ve got the best idea ever, and they’re writing it and writing it. And they make the evidence very vague because they don’t want it solved in chapter two. They need a whole book worth of investigations and they’re great, they’re great, they’re great.

And they get to the second to the last chapter and they’re like, ‘Now I’ve got to solve it. How do I solve it?’ And so they opened themselves up to logic leaps because they haven’t peppered their story with the evidence that’s actually there so that the reader can look back and say, ‘Oh.’

If you solve it first, if you know what you’re smoking gun is before you do the actual crime, then you can write your story in the direction of that smoking gun.

And the same thing with deception. If you know how they’re going to get caught in their lie, then you can work that lie in so that you can craft it so that it’s a humdinger of a lie, but it’s not a logic leap for them to get caught later on. Does that make sense?

Joanna: That is great. And I must say, this interview was mainly about the autopsy one but your books are, like you say, detailed technically, but not so detailed that they’re not really readable.

Geoff: Thank you.

Joanna: I zoomed through the autopsy book. I was just like, this is so cool and there’s a lot of ideas. I’d love people to check that out. Also, you speak around the world at many writers conferences.

Geoff: I do.

Joanna: We met at NINC, which was really cool. If anyone listening sees your name, then they should definitely go.

Where can people find you and your books online?

Geoff: Oh, thank you so much for that. I am everywhere online and luckily nobody has my name yet. So if you look up Geoff Symon, Geoff with a G, Symon with a Y, you should be able to find me. But my website is geoffsymon.com and the website that goes to my books, which is part of my main website, is forensicsforfiction.com. All of my books are sold on all the major areas. If you want to go Amazon, iTunes, Barnes & Noble, wherever, you should be able to find them there as well.

Joanna: Fantastic. Thanks so much for your time, Geoff. That was great.

Geoff: Well, thank you for having me. This was great. It really was fun.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

It can be overwhelming for authors to manage all that’s involved in marketing our books. In this article, Eevi Jones shares five easy ways to make the most of your social media branding so that those accounts are doing some of the work for you.

Promoting and marketing ourselves is quite a challenge for most of us authors.

And although it’s so very important, we often don’t have the time, or we simply don’t want to seem too pushy.

That’s why it’s all the more important to take advantage of all the opportunities that present themselves in our everyday lives, but are so often overlooked by most.

In this article, I will show you 5 simple changes you can make today, that can have such a huge impact for you and is such a quick and amazing win. Everyone here can do this within minutes. This is how so many of my clients have found me, my books, and my programs!

1. Your Profile Picture

Try using the same profile image throughout each media channel. That way, potential readers will recognize you more easily, be it on your Amazon author page, Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

BONUS TIP: wear something bright or have a bright background. For example, I wear something red in my profile image, while the woman’s profile image on the right shows a bright and bold background. This will allow others to quickly recognize you, even if it’s just a thumbnail-sized image.

Many authors treat their profile image as an afterthought. From now on, try making more conscious decisions when it comes to color choices and images. And once you’ve decided on an image, try to stick with it.

The same holds true for your displayed author name. Be consistent with it throughout all social media channels.

Make it as easy as you possibly can for your followers to find and recognize you.

2. Brand Your Facebook Profile

Now, you may have heard this before, but this one will add a whole new layer to your online presence.

How often have you hovered over someone’s profile picture within Facebook groups to see who they were or to find out more about them? This provides you with an incredible opportunity to show as much information about yourself as you possibly can.

Here are 5 things you can share about yourself and your work on Facebook’s profile:

1. Profile Image:

As already mentioned, try to be as consistent as you possibly can by using the same name and profile image. That will help readers recognize us more easily.

2. Cover Image:

Facebook’s cover image is prime real estate. Use it to your advantage and display things such as your latest book. Also, pay attention that the main content of your cover image displays properly on mobile devices as well, and doesn’t cut off important parts of your image or message.

And don’t forget to add your website’s url, if you have one. Remember, we want to make it as easy as possible for others to learn more about us.

3. Mini Bio:

This one is amazing as this text will show up even if someone looks at your profile on a mobile device, so be sure to make this short snippet of 101 characters count.

Joanna’s mini-bio, for example, currently reads: Author. Entrepreneur. Speaker.

As a well-known influencer, this is perfectly sufficient. Less known authors, on the other hand, may want to consider adding additional information such as the genre they’re writing in, or the title of their latest book.

My mini-bio currently reads: I help aspiring children’s book authors with the entire book creation process.

I also added my website URL, for good measure.

4. Featured Image:

This is the featured image of your profile page.

You can set this up by either clicking the little pencil icon located at the top right of this area to “Edit” your featured photos, or by clicking on OPTIONS for an already existing photo, and then selecting MAKE FEATURED PHOTO.

Facebook displays up to 5 featured images. I chose to just show 1, which makes it big and prominent. That’s how many children’s book authors from various Facebook groups have discovered my book. This is so powerful, as it will show up on desktop screens as well as on mobile devices.

5. Clickable Link:

The clickable link can either be to your website, your Amazon author page, your book page (be sure to use a clean link), or your Linktr.ee address, an amazing free tool for optimizing your traffic, which I will cover next.

BONUS TIP: We rarely self-promote ourselves on our private Facebook page, so you may still have a number of friends and family members that don’t know what you’ve been up to of late. So as you’re making these updates, they will automatically show up in your friends’ feed. You might even win a new fan among those that already know you.

3. Linktr.ee Is Your Friend

This is an incredible and absolutely free tool, that comes in very handy, as social media platforms such as Facebook and Instagram only display one clickable link.

Linktr.ee allows your one link to house all the content you want to share with followers everywhere you can share a link. And while it was originally created for Instagram use only, it can be shared and used everywhere.

When clicking on my linktree link, you will see this, giving visitors access to 6 different links that I want to share:

So by clicking on my linktr.ee link, people can access my courses, my most recent article features, and other fun things like my quiz. It’s a great tool and absolutely free.

NOTE how my profile picture and my name are the same on every single platform. That will help readers recognize me more easily.

4. Your Instagram Profile

Just like on Facebook, people can see right away who I am and what I do by looking at my Instagram profile.

Instagram allows for fun emojis, so you can show a bit more personality, and showcase what else is important to you.

Remember that Instagram only allows for one clickable link, so this would be the perfect opportunity to make use of your Linktr.ee link.

I also make use of Instagram’s Highlights, and added red highlight covers below my profile. This is something not many make use of, but that is so very effective.

Each highlight holds relevant information to me as both an author and as a publishing strategist. My program highlights, for example, hold information regarding my programs, and the shoutouts highlights showcase a number of testimonials. This would be the perfect place to display some amazing reviews your book has already received.

5. Your Good Old Hashtags

The power of Instagram is in the hashtags. Now, we can go over similar authors’ feeds and see what hashtags they are using, or we can let free online tools do the work for us.

Best-Hashtags.com’s algorithm, for example, calculates the best hashtags for us based on historical data.

Entering #childrensbooks in the search bar, for example, generates these two separate sets, each holding 30 hashtags, the maximum number of hashtags allowed by Instagram.

We can now simply click the copy button, paste the entire set of hashtags into Instagram, and see your engagement rise.

Using the correct hashtags, your posts will get more likes and more views. Just be sure to update your lists every so often by searching for topics and terms relevant to your writings.

Conclusion

You can apply many of these simple changes to other social media platforms that you’re planning to use in your marketing strategy.

Make the most of the virtual real estate you’ve been provided with and make it as easy as possible for people to:

1. See what you do; and
2. See where they can get what you have to offer

Now, of course, you don’t have to be present on every single social media platform out there. But it is my hope that after having read this article, you’re more conscious about your choices and realize that there are so many daily opportunities where we can share our work.

I would love to hear any other little ninja hacks you may know of to make the most out of your social media presence. I can’t wait to see what you come up with.

Happy optimizing!

Do your social media accounts reflect a consistent author brand? Please leave your thoughts below and join the conversation.

Eevi Jones is the author of the multi-award winning and bestselling book How To Self-Publish A Children’s Book, and the founder of Children’s Book University, where she teaches loving moms, dads, grandparents, and teachers how to write and publish their own magical story.

She’s been featured in media outlets such as Forbes, Scary Mommy, EOFire, Kindlepreneur, Your First 10K Readers, and many more. She can be found online at EeviJones.com.

(All images in the body of the post are owned by Eevi Jones and can be used for this article.)

Getting past fear is something every creative has to deal with at some point in their career. In this article, Marissa Frosch walks us through five of the most common writing fears authors encounter – and how to deal with them.

Have you ever watched someone working so hard to make their dreams come true and when an opportunity presented itself, they shot it down? Saying “This isn’t for me.” “It wouldn’t work for me.” or “I’ve tried so many things at this point, I don’t want to try anything else.”

I have. Too many times to count. And more often than not, those people are authors. Authors like you and me.

Why do you think they reject opportunity? They want to be successful, they want to make a living from their writing. But they’d rather come up with excuses than even give it a try. Have you ever walked away from an opportunity? Why?

I was curious about it so I asked my mentor, Tim Grahl. His response was simple.

Fear.

And as soon as he spoke the word I knew, fear wasn’t only holding authors I knew back from success, it was holding me back too.

The more I thought about it, the more I realized fear was a driving factor in a lot of my decisions.

Before we look at different kinds of fear, let’s take a moment for self-reflection. This is an important step to recognizing what’s holding you back and overcoming it.

Take a long hard look at yourself

Really stop and think about your actions and where you want to be. Have you been working towards your goals? Or staying occupied with “busy work”.

I was so busy with “busy work” and not getting anywhere for years. The realization that fear was stopping me not only pissed me off, it helped me open my eyes to what I was actually doing: wasting my time. And as the mother of three, my time is precious.

Ask yourself, is this what you really want?

Do you actually want to be an author? Do you want to reach readers? Change their lives with your words? Do you want to read to a room full of kids words that you wrote? What do you want?

Really stop and figure this out. What do you want? What is your definition of success?

Fear is a powerful force and it comes from inside you. You need an equally powerful force to get past it.

By the time I sat down with this question and really considered it, I was two years and six books into publishing. So I wondered, what would I do if I wasn’t writing, publishing, and helping authors? The answer for me was, I’d still be writing and helping other authors. So why stop publishing?

Different Kinds of Fear

Once you’re positive you’re on the right the path for you, you need to start paying attention to yourself. Look for those moments when fear is stopping you and figure out A. What you’re afraid of, and B. How to overcome it.

The following are common fears among authors.

1. Fear of judgment:

You’re literally putting something you poured your heart and soul into out there for other people to judge. You are even seeking it out by asking people to review your work. This can be terrifying.

How to overcome it: Seek it out. Ask for those reviews.

Then you have two options. You can be smart and not read the reviews. Have someone you trust keep an eye on them and give you any relevant or helpful feedback.

OR you can be like me and read them all. And then read your favorites a few more times and after the hurt is over you could go back and look for the bits of constructive criticism usually lurking in critical reviews (at least the ones by normal people and not trolls).

[From Joanna: Fear of judgment is definitely one of my biggest issues! Check out my video on it here. ]

2. Fear that you’re not good enough:

This one goes beyond judgment. It’s the fear that you as a person are not good enough and don’t believe you deserve to be successful. The fear that because you don’t have an MFA or a marketing degree, you somehow don’t deserve to be successful in this field.

This one is harder than most of the fears listed because it goes so much deeper and takes so much more than a mindset shift to get over.

How to overcome it:

This is a negative mindset and you need to rewire yourself towards a more positive one. This can be done with a little exercise where every time you catch yourself in a negative thought, think of two positive things about yourself or the situation.

For example: If you’re at an event and you haven’t sold a book all day, you might be inclined to think “They can tell I’m self-published and don’t have a degree. I’ll never sell a book here.”

Instead, think about the interactions you’ve had, the other authors you’ve met. Find some way to put a positive spin on the day. Even if it’s just that at least you were able to get out of the house that day.

The more you do this, the more your brain will begin to see the positivity on its own and those will be the thoughts that cross your mind more often than the negative.

Here’s a video Joanna created to help you deal with self-doubt and imposter syndrome.

That being said, if you have a little (or not so little) voice in the back of your head that is constantly putting you down or saying you’re not good enough, you should seek help from a professional.

You need to retrain your brain and learn how to love yourself for who you are and all that you offer the world. Don’t suffer, get help and start living the life you were born to live.

3. Fear Your Book Isn’t Good Enough:

Anyone ever felt this way? Me too. When you worry that your book isn’t edited properly or the cover is wrong for your market, these are things you need to pay attention too. But the fear that you didn’t write a good enough book, or it’s not done is whole other can of worms.

How to overcome it: First off, is this fear founded? Have you received feedback that your story is unrealistic or has a ton of typos? Are all your reviews negative or leaning in that direction? Is your book just not selling?

If you answered yes to any of these, it might be time for your book to get a makeover. I recently took down my first and second in series and redrafted the first one and I’m looking into new covers.

Why? I knew something was off from the start but when I found the Story Grid by Shawn Coyne I figured out what.

With this tool, I pinpointed what my books were missing and wrote significantly better drafts. This is a slippery slope that can lead to always fixing and never publishing. So if you decided to do this, set specific measurable goals before you start tweaking. Give yourself deadlines and stick to them.

As for your covers and editing, take the time to find an artist/designer and editor you really like and trust–and who creates on-genre work. I’ve been through several editors and have found that some are definitely better than others.

Check out this video Joanna made about finding and working with an editor for more information.

4. Fear of Failure:

This one is incredibly common among authors. Some authors don’t even tell their friends and family they’re publishing a book because they don’t want to have to tell them they failed if things don’t go perfectly. (This excludes people who don’t tell their family out of concerns for their safety.)

How to overcome it:

My approach was a bit counterintuitive but works for me. I told everyone what I was doing. Everyone. Because every time someone asks me how things are going, if I can’t say well or really well, it strengthens my resolve.

Not everyone is like me though. So another option is to start keeping a journal. Set small time-based goals and track them. Inch forward. That way when someone asks you how things are going, you will have a list of all the positive things that have happened and what you’ve actually accomplished.

Talking about it with other people can help you realize how far you’ve come. I rarely feel like I’m doing well until my husband points out my accomplishments, so don’t underestimate the power of talking things through with other people.

That said, make sure you surround yourself with supportive people, and while in-person support is best, a virtual supportive community can make a world of difference.

5. Fear of Success:

This might seem odd but it’s also pretty common. Success is the unknown for authors. Will you sell lots of books and then drown in the pressure to write another good one? Will you have people wanting to make movies and agents wanting to represent you and all those eyes just watching and waiting for you to screw up?

How to overcome it:

The unknown has a pretty good stranglehold on me. I’ve found resolving to do a little bit each day, is the best approach. If you feel the anxiety of other people’s expectations creeping in and holding you back. Take a baby step forward.

Nothing stops me faster than when someone says they enjoy my work. I hate it. For me, this fear manifests as writer’s block. I’ve gotten pretty good at knowing when it’s starting to settle in. I allow myself to write 500 words a day in any project I’m inspired to write.

If 500 is too much for you, start with 150, 100, or even just 50 words. Just don’t let it stop you. Name it, recognize it, and put it in its place until you’ve done your work for the day.

On a larger scale, these are the steps you can take to overcome fears and blocks.

Write down your why

This is why I told you to think long and hard about what you want. Put it where you can see it every single day. You want this thing bad enough you’ll be able to face even your most crippling fears.

Don’t just leave it at that, reevaluate your why often. Every three months or so. Make sure it still drives you forward on the really hard days.

Resolve to inch forward one day at a time

You’ve figured out your why now figure out some SMART goals. I like to have quarterly goals because I write down my yearly ones in January and then forget about them until December. Which is not helpful at all. But you need to do what works for you. I’d just recommend checking in monthly or quarterly no matter which you choose.

Figure out a system to you to your goal and beyond

Goals are a great way to motivate yourself into action but systems will actually get there and beyond. Again it’s about inching forward. Find something that works for you.

For example, if your goal is to sell a certain number of books in a certain time frame, you’ll need to do outreach. Rather than sitting down and reaching out to 100 influencers in one day and getting burnt out. Have one day of outreach. Plan to send 2-5 emails and then have another day dedicated to following up with the previous week’s emails. Small steps.

If you do two things a week to reach your goal that’s 110 things a year. You’ll get there before you know it! It’s just important to find what works for you and your schedule.

Continually and cautiously step outside your comfort zone

Once you start facing your fears, it gets easier. So keep doing it. You’ll find new fear crop up in the old fears places but they’ll be much easier to handle.

Don’t give up!

Keep doing it and you’ll find the success you’ve been looking for is a lot closer than you think.

Is fear what’s getting in the way of achieving your dreams? Stopping you from reaching your definition of success? If you think it is, take a moment to identify it. If you know what kind of fear it is, what exactly you’re afraid of, you can change it.

Change it by taking small steps. Face your fear and change your life. I dare you.

[Note from Joanna: For more on conquering the fears that might be holding you back, check out The Successful Author Mindset: A Handbook for Surviving the Author Journey.]

Are there fears that are getting in the way of your writing? Please leave your thoughts below and join the conversation.

Marissa Frosch is the founder of Raven’s Quill Publishing. She got her Associate’s Degree in Marketing from Southern New Hampshire University in May 2018, is a Certified Book Launch Coach trained by Tim Grahl, and is working on her Story Grid Editor Certification.

After working co-founding Amphibian Press and working there for five years, Marissa started Raven’s Quill Publishing. Be sure to download your free Author Platform Guide. Marissa also writes fiction under the name Cameron J Quinn.

Online marketing is a big part of every author’s focus, but we shouldn’t forget about the value of meeting readers in person. In this article, C. Penticoff offers four types of giveaways for conferences and other in-person events that will expand your reader base and connect you with those in the book industry.

One of the first things every entrepreneur does after launching their business is to order business cards.

This seems logical, especially since it’s an affordable and professional way to distribute a physical piece of content providing all the ways to find and contact you.

You may have already done this, or you may be thinking about ordering some business cards. But, let me ask you this…

What’s one of the first things you do when you’re handed a business card?

It’s probably thrown away, stuck in a wallet, or tossed into the bottomless pit you call your purse… never to be seen again.

Even though business cards are a very affordable option, what’s the point in spending even a penny for something that is hardly ever effective?

If you’re an author, it seems business cards are even less effective if you’re handing these out to readers. Readers aren’t as interested in contacting you as they are in simply doing what they love to do–read your books!

There’s no doubt having something physical to hand out to readers and other professionals in your industry is beneficial, but let’s make sure every dime spent on your business drives your brand further up the ladder.

So, what can you hand out that will drive your business forward, instead of something that will end up in the trash?

1. Books

One great idea for an author is to hand out a book rather than a business card. Books will cost quite a bit more to hand out, but there is no doubt this can be an effective strategy.

The reader will read your book, and because they’ve met you in person, they are more likely to spread the word about your book and become a serial reader.

Be sure your back or front book matter lists ways they can subscribe to your mailing list. Inserting a separate sheet of paper into the book with that information is a great way to engage your reader, and including a bookmark with that information is ideal!

It’s important to note when you hand out a book to someone you make sure they know right away what is in it for them. When you hand a book to someone and you say something like, “Here is my book you can have for free” — that statement makes the free copy about the writer.

When you say something along the lines of, “Do you want to learn how to double your income as an author?” it makes the statement about the reader.

For my genre, I would say something like, “Do you want to get lost in a magical and enchanting world?” You can come up with a phrase that would best fit your book.

2. Bookmarks

If handing out a book is out of your budget, then handing out bookmarks is a fantastic alternative! What’s great about handing out bookmarks is it will have the useful information a business card would, but it’s something the reader can actually use!

You might be wondering where you can go to get a bookmark design. A Novel Connection creates custom bookmark designs for only $25. After you get your design, head to a website, such as 48 Hour Print or Vista Print to purchase your bookmarks. You can easily get 500 bookmarks printed for less than $80.

Psst…Bookmarks are also great for giveaways on social media or your website!

Your bookmark design should include on the front:

• Your name/logo
• Your social media handles and website
• Eye-catching colors and graphics that matches your brand (Have your designer help you with this)

Your bookmark on the back should include:

• An easy-to-read link that drives your reader to your mailing list, as email marketing is arguably the best way to reach your readers directly.

Bonus Tip: My mailing list subscription link is ridiculous in length, which is not ideal for a physical item. Therefore, I created a page on my website that includes my mailing list form that is easy to read: cpenticoff.com/subscribe. That is easy to read and easy to type into a computer.

Your goal should always be to get readers to your mailing list. For example, I offer my mailing list subscribers a free fantasy book every Friday that I hunt down on Amazon; in addition, I offer free writing tips to writers who opt into that feature.

Read The Creative Penn’s post on How to Build Your Email List for a better grasp on email marketing.

3. Business Cards

If books and bookmarks are out of your budget, then business cards are a good option if you do it effectively.

When you design your business card, consider ordering double-sided cards, allowing you to get everything you need on the card without it looking jammed into a tiny space.

What to include on the front:

• Your logo (Or just your name if you do not have a logo designed yet)
• Your tagline

Bonus Tip: Your tag line is a one sentence phrase that sums you up as an author.
Examples:

• Western Romance Writer
• New York Times Best-Selling Author
• Award-Winning Fantasy Author
• Teaching Writers How to Build Their Brand

What to include on the back:

• Contact information: email address and/or phone number
• Website
• Social media handles
• Easy-to-read mailing list subscription link

Remember, the mailing list is the money maker, so the best way to use a business card (or any physical item like this) is to include this link and what is in it for them when they subscribe.

4. Ebooks

It is beneficial to have something physical to offer readers and other professionals, but if books, bookmarks, and business cards are out of your financial reach, then you can always give away an ebook, which will be of no cost to you.

This may not be a physical item that readers can hold in their hands, but it sure beats nothing, right?

Make sure you have their explicit permission and then send them the file to your ebook. In the email, be sure to ask them if they want to subscribe to your mailing list, and what’s in it for them when they do, then provide a link where they can easily subscribe.

[Note from Joanna: BookFunnel also offers Instant Book Giving for ebooks as part of their service features.]

What happens if a business professional asks you for your business card?

At this moment, you would offer them whatever physical item you have to give away.

But, do you stop there?

Oh, no! You’re far too savvy of an entrepreneur to leave it at that.

You ask them for their business card and you contact them. There is a very good and strategic reason behind this. When a business professional asks you for your contact information, there is a great chance you will never actually hear from them.

This is especially true if you met them at an event where they also met dozens or even hundreds of other authors or professionals in your industry and/or they are a well-known figure in the industry who is very busy.

After you obtain their business card, give it a few days (I mean, you don’t want to seem desperate), then email (or call) and remind them who you are, what you discussed, and why they were interested in contacting you in the first place. This maximizes your chances of the professional following through in whatever was discussed.

What do you give away at conferences and other in-person events to connect with readers and others in the book industry? Please leave your thoughts below and join the conversation.

To find more useful writing and entrepreneur resources from C. Penticoff, head to her website, and be sure to subscribe to her mailing list for a free fantasy book every Friday. For authors, check the “writer” box to receive writing tips.

Today marks the 10th anniversary of The Creative Penn Podcast. The first episode went live on 15 March 2009 and there are now 422 episodes with over 3.2 million downloads across 215 countries. In today’s show, I reflect on the development of the podcast and my own creative journey. 

Podcasting is such a big industry now that there are lots of courses on how to do it and lists of best practices and how to launch and a lot of detail that can seem overwhelming. A bit like writing a book really!

But like writing a book, or self-publishing, you can learn as you go, adding to your process over time and outsourcing as you start making income.

Also like writing a book, many people will start the journey but very few will continue for the long-term.

I recorded the first episode in the spare room of my house in Ipswich, Queensland, Australia. I phoned my interviewee, Rachael Bermingham, on a landline, put it on speakerphone and held my MP3 recorder next to the phone to record it. Rachel was the co-author of 5 Ingredients, one of the first breakout self-published books in Australia. She was all over the news so she was basically famous and I didn’t have a clue what I was doing but I did it anyway.

I’m so glad I took that first step because my podcast is one of the best things I’ve created in my life. It is an important part of my creative body of work.

Today’s show is sponsored by all the wonderful listeners who support the show on Patreon. Thank you! Your support makes it clear that you enjoy the show, find it useful, and want it to continue. You can support the podcast for just a few dollars per month and receive the extra Q&A audio per month, plus the audio backlist. Just go to www.Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

What have I discovered in 10 years of The Creative Penn podcast?

In this article, I’ll take you through a journey of the development of the show and share tips along the way, and then talk about my next 10-year slow pivot. The tips are relevant for anyone who wants a long-term creative business, not just specifically if you want to podcast because the principles are essentially the same. I hope you find some interesting ideas for your own author business!

March 2009 – First episode. I started by doing everything myself!

I started podcasting in 2009 as a way to build my author platform. I was still in my job as a business consultant and I wanted professional speaking work as well as a way to sell my non-fiction books and courses. I was determined to build multiple streams of income so that I could leave my job and become a full-time author-entrepreneur. I knew I needed more than books to make a decent income (and I still believe that’s true for most authors).

With some of my early books in 2009 (no longer available in those editions!)

I self-published my first book, How to Enjoy Your Job, in 2008 (later rewritten as Career Change) but I had only sold around 100 copies even though I’d made it onto national TV and radio, so I decided to put all my energy into online marketing which looked to have better results.

My mentor, Yaro Starak, had a podcast and it was one of the main ways I learned about entrepreneurship. Yaro has been on the show several times, most recently in episode 406 to talk about long-term success and he continues to be a great model of sustainable online business and living a happy life. [Check out his Blog Profits Blueprint here.]

I listened to a lot of audio from bloggers in the US at the time and realised that it was a fantastic way to reach people with a message and I also bought products from people I listened to, so I knew it worked as a marketing funnel. There were very few authors producing podcasts (and it’s still rare) so I thought it might be a way to differentiate myself and build an audience over time.

I wanted to learn and share my journey, as well as help other people. I also wanted to connect with other authors.

I was deeply lonely in my little town west of Brisbane, Australia. It was a cultural wilderness and I wanted to meet other creative entrepreneurs. Interviewing them seemed like a good way to connect, especially as many of them lived in the USA.

TIP: Only start a podcast if you are doing it for more than the money. It has to be intrinsically rewarding first before you ever make a dollar from it.

Podcasting takes time to grow.

For about six months, it was like howling into the wind. No traffic, no listeners, no nothing. This was back when self-publishing was still a dirty word, but as the Kindle took off, things began to change, at least in the USA and the podcast began to gain traction. I started to get listeners and I started to connect with people. I even made some (online) friends!

Technically, I did everything myself.

Learning by doing is one of the most important principles for the independent creative entrepreneur. Stop talking about it and get on with it

I still think this is important. In fact, I have a note pinned by my desk based on Steven Pressfield’s books, Turning Pro and Do The Work.

“When we turn pro, everything becomes simple. Quit the monkey mind. Do the work.”Click To Tweet

Sept 2011 – I left my job to be a full-time author-entrepreneur

I was able to leave my job because I made an income at that point from multiple streams of income. I’ve been through this in my books, How to Make a Living with your Writing, and Business for Authors, in more detail, but basically, I was bringing in money from book sales, speaking, consulting, course sales, and affiliate income. Marketing my business and services was all based on content marketing, so people found me through the blog and the podcast.

TIP: Podcasting is a form of indirect marketing.

Making videos at the British Museum, London – just part of the job!

You can give calls to action with specific links which you can also include in your show notes, but podcasting is really more of a brand-building exercise over time.

People can’t click on a link as they might do with ads or a blog post because they are listening at the gym or driving or while they’re doing other things, but they might go looking for you later if they connect with your message.

I can’t point to a specific percentage of my income that has come from the podcast, but over the years I’d say that it’s responsible for the lion’s share of my creative business because it has led to so many opportunities and has enabled me to reach an audience directly — without advertising.

This is another reason I’m so passionate about content marketing, especially at a time when authors are obsessed with paid ads. I’ve never paid to advertise my website or podcast. It’s grown organically over time through search engine traffic, social media shares and word of mouth.

It’s creative, sustainable, long-term marketing which suits my personality much better than focusing on paid ads.

[If you’re interested in specifics around content marketing for fiction, check out my mini-course, Content Marketing for Fiction.]

Jan 2013 – I started doing an introduction ahead of the interview

After four years of interview-only podcasting, a listener emailed me and suggested that I talk about what I found interesting in an intro before the show.

I didn’t think anyone would be interested, but it turns out that many of you tune in for the intros and not always for the interviews

So, I’ve expanded it over the years to include more segments — news, futurist things, my personal update and anything useful like webinars, and I’ve realised how powerful it is to be able to communicate so personally. I try to share openly about my creative journey and sometimes it’s these little snippets that seem to connect the most.

Voice is powerful for connection. People do business with people they know, like and trust.Click To Tweet

Always make sure you’re connecting with your audience in some way. It’s important that people get to know YOU, not just your guests. This is how you build up a trusted brand over time and foster a real connection with your listeners.

June 2013 – I started doing transcripts for search engine optimization

I was teaching Guardian Masterclasses on self-publishing in London by 2013

Up until this point, I made detailed show notes myself during the audio editing process but it was more of a round-up, not a transcript.

If you want organic traffic for a podcast, you need transcripts for SEO (search engine optimization)  purposes because audio is not (yet) searchable.

This costs around $1 per minute, so a 45 min show is $45. I use www.speechpad.com but there are many other services. You still have to edit and format the transcript for your website, which I did myself initially and then my VA, Alexandra, eventually took over that job. That kind of help might add another $20-$40 per show, depending on how long your interview is. There are also services that will do everything for you, including all the audio tech, but they cost a lot more.

I’m glad to have transcripts for accessibility purposes, and because many people prefer to skim the text rather than listen, but I do it for the traffic. That means transcripts are not for everyone. It’s got to be worth the investment.

TIP: You need to be a business powered by a website to make effective use of transcription.

Words on web pages bring people to your site through search traffic, but what do they do when they get there?

I have books and courses you can buy, my free Author Blueprint and tutorials that lead to affiliate income, as well as an email list you can sign up for that has more products within. I turn traffic into revenue every day.

Most podcasts don’t have an associated business model, so they fail to capture the benefit of transcripts and therefore most don’t do them anyway, which also means they don’t get enough traffic to justify paying for them. It’s a chicken and egg situation.

Podcasting is content marketing.

I get organic traffic of over 700,000 uniques per month and many thousands of the words on this site are generated from podcast transcripts. They produce long-tail traffic and may even be more effective in an age of voice-first search because the language is natural and spoken, rather than written.

[More on content marketing in How to Market a Book, and also my Content Marketing for Fiction mini-course.]

Feb 2014 – I decided to give up the podcast

With indie superstars Bella Andre and Hugh Howey, London, 2014

Yes, I really did think I was going to give it up!

By this point, the podcast was taking a LOT of my time. Since I was still doing everything myself, each podcast took around 5 hours each week.

The downloads had begun to creep up which meant more people were listening, but it also meant the show was costing me more money. I use Amazon S3 hosting which is cheap and scalable, but the costs go up as downloads increase and I was paying over $100 per month on hosting, on top of $60 per week on transcription. If you factor in my time, the podcast was getting pretty expensive.

Was it really worth it?

I was still getting the benefits I’d aimed for — connection with other authors, learning new things, brand-building and indirect sales, but at that point, I was not earning a big income from my author business. I had not hit six figures and I wanted to, so something had to give.

It was you guys, my listeners, who convinced me to continue — and who still keep me coming back every week. So many people told me that the podcast was useful that I decided to monetise it. I would double down, instead of giving it up.

TIP: If something isn’t working, why isn’t it working?

Do you hate the topic, or have you run out of ideas, or does no one care?

OR/ do you have an audience but you just need to figure out how to make it pay?

What is your business model?

[For more on this, see How to Make a Living with your Writing and Business for Authors: How to be an Author Entrepreneur.]

May 2014 – The first corporate sponsor, Kobo Writing Life, joined the show

Thanks to Mark Lefebvre who believed that supporting the podcast was worth it, and to Chrissy Munroe for continuing to support the show even though it is a lot more expensive now as there are so many more downloads every week  

Over the years, I’ve welcomed new sponsors, all companies who I work with for my own books and can therefore personally recommend. I’ve turned down a lot of offers from companies I don’t work with as it’s important to me that I only promote useful things.

Thanks to all the sponsors: Kobo Writing Life, Draft2Digital, IngramSpark, and PublishDrive.

TIP: If you want a sponsor, foster relationships with companies who want to speak to your specific audience.

Don’t pitch too soon. Wait until you have a decent audience so you can put together download figures.

Only work with companies you can authentically recommend. Your reputation will always be the most important thing for a long-term business.

August 2014 – I started using Patreon

I felt terrible about asking for patrons at first because the podcast had been free for so long. But a few things changed my mind.

I read The Art of Asking by Amanda Palmer (I’m one of her patrons now!) which is a great book that essentially says that people want to help the creators they love, so just ask. I also had a discussion with Jim Kukral about his book, Go Direct, (episode 191)  where we discussed artistic patronage and how creatives have always been supported by people who love their work. So I started asking.

In Sept 2014, I made $15.88 from patrons. In Jan 2016, it ticked over $100 a month, so it was definitely slow growth. Now it’s over $2000 a month, so you guys make the podcast financially viable alongside the corporate sponsors.

With Mark Lefebvre at Kobo HQ in Toronto, July 2014

Basically, I will not stop doing The Creative Penn Podcast because I have people who demonstrate practically that it is worthwhile and it is an increasingly important part of my income.

A huge thank you to all of you who sponsor the show on Patreon. There are 644 patrons right now and of course, the number goes up and down every month as people join and leave. It means an incredible amount because you can obviously listen to the show for free, but it’s evidence that you enjoy the show and want it to continue. You also get the extra monthly Q&A audios as well.

If you’d like to sponsor the show, go to: www.Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

TIP: If you want to use Patreon for your podcast or your art, it’s easiest if you have an audience already who you already deliver value to in some way and who want to support you.

Only a small percentage of your audience will join your Patreon. The Creative Penn Podcast gets 12,000 – 15,000 downloads per week, and with 644 patrons, that is less than 5%. That return will differ per niche, but it’s all a factor of numbers, so do you have a big enough audience to justify a Patreon setup?

Patreon is just one part of how the podcast makes income but it is directly measurable, as is the amount that comes from sponsorship. In 2018, my direct podcast income was 10% of my total business revenue, but there’s no way that is the only financial return.

Indirect sales are a huge part of the podcasting business model.

There’s no way of knowing how many of you have bought one of my books or courses, or clicked through one of my affiliate links, or signed up for my email list, or purchased something I’ve recommended because of this show. The frustrating thing is that you cannot ever pin down the financial value of a podcast. That makes it hard on sponsors as well, because it’s more about brand building than direct income but it’s also the pride and satisfaction of creating something new in the world every week that helps people.

August 2014 – Outsourced transcript formatting

My virtual assistant, the wonderful Alexandra Amor, works with me on a lot more than the podcast, but up until this point, I had done everything myself for the show. Plus, I was still writing fiction and non-fiction, as well as speaking, blogging and more.

To free up more time, I passed over the formatting of the transcripts to Alexandra and she created the first draft of the show notes with accompanying images made with www.canva.com .

TIP: If you want to step up your income, and move from being an author to running a business as an author, you need to leverage your time.

That means hiring help.

Most of us work with professional book cover designers and professional editors, but if you want to take your business to the next level, you might need a virtual assistant, a bookkeeper, perhaps tech help, and even marketing help, if you can justify the outlay. If you’re podcasting, you might need transcription, formatting, or audio editing help.

For tips on outsourcing, check out this interview with Chris Ducker on how to work with personal assistants. I also cover outsourcing as part of my Productivity for Authors mini-course.

TIP: Create a content schedule so you can plan in advance. I didn’t really do this until I started working with Alexandra as my VA. When you outsource, you need to plan, which helps you organise content. We use a shared Google Sheet with months of interviews scheduled in advance.

June 2015 – Moved to a weekly show

Prior to this, the podcast was pretty much every two weeks or ad hoc as I recorded interviews and not necessarily published on the same day.

TIP: In order to make listening a habit, it’s best to release the show on the same day on a regular schedule e.g. weekly.

I only moved to weekly because The Self-Publishing Podcast (now The Story Studio Podcast) was catching me up in terms of number of episodes because they were weekly, and that annoyed me!

Book research in Dubrovnik, June 2015

But I discovered going weekly at a regular time dramatically impacted the number of subscribers and downloads. It was definitely a game-changer, but also mid-2015 was when podcasting started to take off so there may have been more listeners around in general.

The same is likely true of our books. I’ve never managed a regular production and release schedule but authors who publish on the same day, or send a newsletter on the same day, seem to have better engagement than those of us who are more ad hoc.

Oct 2015 – Outsourced video editing

My husband Jonathan left his job in Sept 2015 and started working with The Creative Penn. He took over the video editing for the podcast, adding the interviews to YouTube.com/thecreativepenn 

Interestingly, the YouTube listenership is a different audience to the audio feed and not one I engage with so much.

I have a lot of shorter videos on YouTube as well, but it’s not my favorite form of creation. I’m more a written word and audio person.

TIP: Only do a video podcast if you love the medium and consume video as part of your daily life.

I’ve been doing YouTube videos for over 10 years now, but I’ve never enjoyed the platform myself and will be phasing this out over time. The same goes for any platform e.g. I don’t use Facebook personally, but I do love Instagram so prefer to use that nowaways.

[I’m www.instagram.com/jfpennauthor if you want to follow my pictures!]

November 2016 – Outsourced audio editing and production

I was still spending time each week with audio production, but finally decided I’d better outsource that as well. I started working with Dan Van Werkhoven to do audio editing and processing for the podcast, which freed up even more of my time.

At this point, my work became the parts only I could do: finding and connecting with interviewees, researching and preparing questions, conducting the interview itself and then finalizing the interview blog post and also recording the introduction every week. This is a truly sustainable way to create for the long-term but there’s no way I could have afforded this at the beginning.

I also relish the skills I have developed around audio which help me with audiobook production as I move more into that arena. [Check out episode 418 on 7 Reasons to Narrate your own Audiobooks for more on this].

How the podcast works now

Since then, the podcast production has been a slick operation:

• I plan the show 3-5 months in advance and schedule guests into the Content Schedule, a Google Doc shared between the whole team where we track the status
• I interview the guest on video Skype and upload the audio to Speechpad for transcription
• Jonathan edits the video and loads it to YouTube and uploads the edited audio to Dropbox for Dan
• Alexandra receives the transcript and formats it into a blog post with appropriate images and links, saving as a draft in WordPress
• I record the intro and load it into Dropbox
• Dan edits the intro into the interview, formats the file and uploads to Auphonic to add the metadata, then Amazon S3 for the hosting and then adds the MP3 URL into the Blubrry plugin on the blog post
• I edit the final version of the blog post, check the audio and schedule for the Monday morning slot
• The show goes out on a Monday morning UK time and you download it on your device

[More detail including technical equipment in my article, How to Podcast]

A huge thanks to Dan, Alexandra, and Jonathan for making the podcast production so streamlined and for making it easier for me to continue with the show.

TIP: Start by doing everything yourself and then outsource the parts that you want to as you begin to earn money.

As with publishing, there are companies who will do all this for you, but you will pay for it.

March 2019 – I’m still here!

Podcasts for authors have come and gone over the years, but I’m still here. In the same way that authors come and go in a niche, or give up writing altogether — and I have seen a lot of those in the last 10 years too — podcasts are mostly short-lived.

In fact, I have a rule now that I don’t do interviews with shows that have less than 30 episodes, because most don’t last. Harsh, but true. It’s the same in any creative industry.

TIP: Consistency over time is critical if you want to build a loyal audience, people who know you, like you and trust you enough to do business with you.

Consistency in creating over time is critical if you want to build a loyal audience.Click To Tweet

You have to love your topic.

You have to have so many ideas that you never tire of creating.

You have to want more than an income because podcasting is only about making money if you design a sustainable business model around it (in a similar way to an author business). You have to find the process intrinsically rewarding or you won’t be able to sustain it for the long-term.

My podcast reaches a larger market and helps more people than my books … and that’s OK

My podcast setup

The Creative Penn Podcast has now had over 3.2 million downloads across 215 countries.

I have not sold a million books yet and I have ‘only’ sold books in 86 countries, which is still pretty awesome, but nowhere near 215.

In terms of demographics, the US makes up 60% of downloads, with UK, Australia, Canada, Germany and New Zealand coming in next — but there are also downloads from Japan and India, Korea, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, the Russian Federation, Israel and Iran among others. Creatives, we are a glorious United Nations of a show!

I used to want my books to be everything, but in this busy world many people prefer to listen, or read with their ears, than to read with their eyes.

You can sometimes change someone’s life more effectively through a podcast or an audiobook than through the written word and that’s OK. Getting your message or your story into someone’s brain is the point.

Words do not have to be written. They can be spoken.Click To Tweet

My podcast is an important part of my creative body of work, just as important as my books, perhaps even more so.

Many of you have told me that you find the show useful, or that some nugget of information or inspiration has helped you or made you money, or just made life easier. As someone who always wanted to be in the self-help industry, a British Tony Robbins, this makes me super happy

The podcast is also an asset that drives revenue for my business and I love doing it. So The Creative Penn Podcast is not going anywhere. I am committing to at least episode 500, so that’s two more years and then I’ll review again.

But it’s also not enough for me anymore.

Books and Travel: Announcing my next 10 years of podcasting

A lot has changed in the author community since March 2009, when the international Kindle had not yet launched and there was no such thing as KDP Select or Kobo or BookBub or ACX or Vellum or many more of the tools we take for granted now.

I’ve changed too and I’ve pretty much shared it all publicly on this site over the years.

I started writing my first novel in November 2009, I left my job in September 2011, I started making six figures in 2015 which is probably when I finally had the confidence to say that I would make it long-term as an author-entrepreneur.

Which brings me to now, March 2019.

When I think about my next 10 years, 2019 – 2029, I know that a lot more will change, but I also know that I still want to be an author and a podcaster.

These things are part of my creative DNA.

But I’m ready to share more of my J.F.Penn side, which I have talked about over the years but never doubled down on. I want to share the personal stories behind my fiction and also talk to authors about the places that inspire their work.

I want to use content marketing to bring people to my fiction and I have some non-fiction in mind for that brand, too. I want to build something new, a destination site for people like me.

Introducing www.BooksAndTravel.page, my new website and podcast for people who love books and travel.

Escape, curiosity, inspiration. Unusual and fascinating places alongside the deeper aspects of travel.

There are four episodes available on the Books and Travel podcast as this goes out and it should be in your usual podcast app. Click here for the episode list and subscribe buttons.

I’ll be doing a mix of solo shows and interviews.

As this goes out, I have solo shows on Lake Malawi, Jerusalem and Bluewater Sailing: The 3 Trips That Shaped my Life, as well as Escape, Reinvention, Curiosity, Challenge: Why Travel?

I’m going to write a travel memoir in public over time and eventually, that will become a book. I’ll also be starting on the shadow book since so much of my darker side emerges when I travel.

It’s a very different side of me and even if you don’t read my fiction, you might find it interesting.

The many incarnations of Jo Frances Penn!

I’ll also be interviewing fiction and non-fiction authors about places they’ve traveled that inspire their writing and also on specific topics like walking, or grief and death travel and basically, anything that interests my J.F.Penn side.

I will NOT be talking about the craft of writing, publishing, book marketing or creative entrepreneurship on Books and Travel

I have interviews available right now with literary fiction writer Orna Ross on Ireland and historical thriller author David Penny on Granada and Cordoba in Spain. More interviews to come with fiction authors on the places that inspire their stories, as well as non-fiction authors on travel and related topics.

If you listen to the show and think you might be an appropriate interviewee, then please use the Contact form on the site, www.BooksAndTravel.page/contact

Books and Travel will be bi-weekly for now because of time constraints but I’ll see how it goes over time. I’d like to go weekly at some point. There is an email signup for a Monthly Reading List because everyone loves book recommendations!

If you want more behind the scenes information about why I’ve chosen to go this way for content marketing and tech setup details, check out my course on Content Marketing for Fiction as I go into much more detail there.

From the early response from Patreon supporters and my Content Marketing course members, it is much more personal than The Creative Penn Podcast. If that piques your interest, I hope you’ll check it out and I’d really appreciate a review on your favorite podcast app, especially iTunes, as that helps with discovery.

OK, I hope you’ve found this useful and that it gives you some ideas for your own creative business. I’ll be back next week as usual with The Creative Penn Podcast and I hope you’ll also check out Jo Frances Penn on the Books and Travel Podcast!

Please do leave any comments or questions or thoughts below and join the conversation. I’d love to know what you think!

Podcast: Play in new window | Download